Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[Happyoldgit]

24 minutes ago, Red90 said:

If we could get one here, that is what I would go for.  Sadly Suzuki does not like the new world. 

Land Rover is a lost cause.  Ignoring the ugly and unreliable junk they are producing, it is all way too expensive.

You know you are right. I was Land Rover through and through for decades but sadly the company has increasingly been putting it's eggs into the same overcrowded basket for a number of years. That's fine if you fit into their target market sector but not if your needs fall outside it.

[Ex Member]

I just went and had a look at LR Canada's site.  The starting MSRP for the lowest spec Discovery is $66300 before delivery, PDI, taxes.... $69122 with all that added on.  That is insane.  It is complicated, pretty stuff for rich people.  They have completely lost hold of their roots.

Top that with the knowledge that every single owner I know has had countless breakdowns make one wonder who wants to buy these things.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Red90

[Tanuki]

TBH I can totally understand JLR chasing the middle/upper-class market segment. That, after all, is where the money is!

A couple of decades back a relative was doing a MBA and chose to focus on the automotive industry: her findings were that it cost not-much-more to build a top-of-the-range car over a distinctly-proletarian model. Parts-cost is surprisingly-low, the big costs are in gathering the parts together and actually installing/staffing/running the production-lines, then shipping the finished cars out to the point-of-sale.

"A gearbox is a gearbox: it incurs essentially the same production-costs and install-costs whatever model of car it's fitted to".

Better, therefore, to fit that gearbox to a car that sells for $100K over one that sells for $50K.

One of her contacts happily said that if markets got tough they'd happily halve their vehicle sales by pruning-out the low-end low-profit models. To me this makes total sense - producing 50,000 vehicles and making on average $10,000 on each generates as much profit as 100,000 vehicles with a $5,000 profit on each - and your site-leasing/operating/staffing costs are halved.

 

Remember - JLR are not in the business of making cars, they're in the business of making money.

OK, the've screwed-up by investing crazily in Diesel (presumably to satisfy the European obsessed-about-CO2-emissions market) but outside the Euro-bubble petrol is still supreme - and this truth's coming home to bite them now.

 

I'll be interested in seeing what the New Year brings in terms of a New Defender. I've got the cash sitting in a slush-fund, and yesterday took a Ford Ranger for a test-drive.

[deep]

1 hour ago, Tanuki said:

 

I'll be interested in seeing what the New Year brings in terms of a New Defender. I've got the cash sitting in a slush-fund, and yesterday took a Ford Ranger for a test-drive.

Right here is the problem: apart from the inappropriateness of a Ford Ranger for the sort of driving I sometimes do, my 110 is a hardtop, set up as a camper van.  As far as I know, you can only get a Ford Ranger in NZ as a crewcab.  Same for a heap of other brands, though some do a flat deck.  The little Suzukis are too little (and too low) for a lot of work.  That really only leaves one model of Toyota that could fulfil that function but, frankly, yuk!  It may well be that the new "Defender" will actually come in some useful body shapes and they may well be able to undertake a lot of the tasks of a working vehicle but I, for one, would take a LOT of convincing that they would do that without costing an arm and a leg to keep fettled and reliable in a hard working situation.  Still, by the time I could afford one, they might have ironed out the bumps...

Nah, I'll stick with my agricultural 110 until one of us dies or the law locks one of us away (they already hate older Land Rovers here)!

[Ex Member]

2 hours ago, Tanuki said:

they're in the business of making money.

They are not doing a great job of that.  They are selling a bunch of vehicles that are the same.  One market, one segment, half a dozen models.

They could also make a lot of money selling a real off road vehicle.  Jeep sells 10 times more Wranglers than Land Rover ever sold Defenders.  And they are not cheap.  In addition, it would help sell the rest of their stuff.  They would get some off road creed back....  They just need to make something better than the Wrangler (simple enough) and market it for real off road use.  Enter it in competitions and win.  And sell it at the same price point.  There is 200000 units a year, easy.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Red90

[Ex Member]

You guys probably don't see it in the UK.  Jeep markets the Wrangler well.  I can drive over the the dealer and pick up a Rubicon with 35s and steel bumpers and a rack and, and...  all fitted, with full factory warranty intact.  There are a dozen on the lot, ready to go.  Anything you want, no problem.  They encourage you to go off road.  They market it for that purpose.

[BogMonster]

4 hours ago, Red90 said:

I just went and had a look at LR Canada's site.  The starting MSRP for the lowest spec Discovery is $66300 before delivery, PDI, taxes.... $69122 with all that added on.  That is insane.  It is complicated, pretty stuff for rich people. 

No it isn't. It's complicated, f**k ugly stuff for rich people

[Scotts90]

Bah humbug. I like my D5, as I did my D4, D3 and D2s which from my limited overseas pricing knowledge were expensive to buy too. 

I like the look of the current JLR range and judging by the amount on the road I can’t be the only one. 

The amount of negativity in this topic is overwhelming...I think the consensus is the new defender will be failure in “our” eyes but I think it will be a commercial success. Time will tell. 

[reb78]

I kinda agree Scott. I quite like the look of the range (with thevexcoetion of the arse end of the d5) and like the idea of the luxury. I cant afford any of it. Its more the fact that they are just a bunch of luxury SUV’s now really (like those merc, bmw porsche all make) although they also look a lot like some of the Kia SUVs as well now. They are waaaay to shiny and expensive to take off road unless you have even more money in the bank than you needed to buy one to repair panels and parts!

I’ve no idea about the new ‘defender’. I wont be able to afford that either! Iwish theyd change the name and just admit its something new though. 

Edited December 24, 2018 by reb78

[Mo Murphy]

1 hour ago, Scotts90 said:

Bah humbug. I like my D5, as I did my D4, D3 and D2s which from my limited overseas pricing knowledge were expensive to buy too. 

I like the look of the current JLR range and judging by the amount on the road I can’t be the only one. 

The amount of negativity in this topic is overwhelming...I think the consensus is the new defender will be failure in “our” eyes but I think it will be a commercial success. Time will tell. 

Just proves everyone else is wrong and we're right, Scott 😊

Mo

 

[Bowie69]

Personally, I think we may be in for a positive surprise, but it is all conjecture anyways, so let's wait until the 27th 😛

[Jamie_grieve]

https://expeditionportal.com/the-new-defender-off-road/?fbclid=IwAR1YkTxduunBQ4aLkFEkNCZSDQN7WfSaR_PFBnAIKo_SLtXV36NXOqwD38Y

 

Maybe there’s a tiny glimmer of hope it’s not going to be a total waste of space. I mean, obviously for fleet users and commercial operations it will be but for a lot of lifestyle people I can see the appeal.

As far as keeping interest going, the marketing department are doing a great job.

I’m still going to continue to moan about all the testing, even off road, being done on low profile road tyres.

 

[Happyoldgit]

Question is, how many users of this forum actually flash the cash, or funding method of their choice, to buy brand new 4x4's? Seriously? Umpteen pages of waffle rather akin to the stuff that can be seen in other places yet only a very small number of contributors buy spankers.

[Anderzander]

Does that matter? 

[Happyoldgit]

1 hour ago, Anderzander said:

Does that matter? 

 

It did when I typed it.

[Jamie_grieve]

1 hour ago, Happyoldgit said:

Question is, how many users of this forum actually flash the cash, or funding method of their choice, to buy brand new 4x4's? Seriously? Umpteen pages of waffle rather akin to the stuff that can be seen in other places yet only a very small number of contributors buy spankers.

I do on a regular basis as a fleet and workshop management consultant. I’ve previously managed large fleets of off highway vehicles including defenders and land cruiers. 

Thats the perspective I try to bring. One outfit I was with bought 65 ROW spec defenders just before the end of production. The last of these vehicles was only distributed a few years ago, the replacements were long overdue and will probably be land cruiser shaped.

For me without defender availability, it’s been land cruiser all the way with the exception of Ford ranger for light admin, and kamaz for medium heavy.

At risk of repetition, look at utility or comercial vehicle purchase statistics to see who actually buys them. It’s not the single vehicle sales from distributors that makes the money although they may make higher margins. It’s company and fleet users that actually buys them. This is the market I’m not entirely convinced has been catered for.

Ultimately the length of warranty on the defender replacement will be the biggest factor for me to recommend one to a client as a brand new unproven vehicle with no past performance or provenance compared to others such as Ford and Toyota that actually do cater for the sector.

[deep]

Dreamers often spend their lives aiming to purchase the impossible.  If a vehicle provides enough inspiration, some of those dreamers eventually buy it.  I'd guess that plenty of people here would still be saving for a new "old" Defender if the goalposts hadn't got shifted.  If the new car appeals in the same way, the same people will buy it.  If not, other people will be the purchasers.  Or nobody.  So, of course, it does matter.  (I'm super-unlikely to buy it myself.  I despise electronic "aids" and it will bristle with them.)

Anyhow, interesting article which picked out things many of us could have already surmised.  One thing it looks like they missed is that the size of the brake discs IS visible in one of their pictures and it looks very much like the car will accept more reasonable rim sizes.  On the downside, that stud pattern is tight and little!

I think, at this stage, there is so much information out there that the only surprises are likely to be the smaller design details - and how much ability there will be to customise.

[Jamie_grieve]

1:25 is quite interesting

 

[Bowie69]

Another word year?

Guess we can close this thread then....

 

[Jamie_grieve]

5 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

Another word year?

Guess we can close this thread then....

 

There must be a great story about how it’s going to have taken 5 years extra on top of whatever development was already underway to replace a very simple and fairly unreliable car. Henry Ford certainly wouldn’t be impressed.

if the dc100 was real and they’d called it something other than a defender they would probably have made a fortune out of it by now and could still be working on the current defender replacement.

[Happyoldgit]

Yawn. A little snippet here, a little there. TBH I can't be arsed to speculate let alone generate any kind of enthusiasm for this kind of peek a boo tosh. Maybe I'm just getting too old but all this over a car / truck / lifestyle statement just bores me now.

[Blanco]

On 12/27/2018 at 8:48 PM, Jamie_grieve said:

I do on a regular basis as a fleet and workshop management consultant.

At this point some of us realise we haven't made the best use of a life-long interest and enthusiasm for motors and 4x4's !!!! I blame poor careers advice when I was at school 

[BogMonster]

21 hours ago, Happyoldgit said:

Yawn. A little snippet here, a little there. TBH I can't be arsed to speculate let alone generate any kind of enthusiasm for this kind of peek a boo tosh. Maybe I'm just getting too old but all this over a car / truck / lifestyle statement just bores me now.

Snap. It's McGovern with his big shirt feeding crumbs to the masses, and I'm bored of the BS. I was faintly hopeful that something interesting was due on 27th, rather than a picture of it stuck in a pond still dressed as a WW1 frigate. If it isn't going to appear until late 2019 it will be too little, too late. I feel another Mitsubishi coming on, as if you strip away the dazzle camo fat suit it looks like it will be about the same shape as a Shogun anyway, only without the 5 year warranty and flawless reliability. For amusement, we could start taking bets on what amusing and fatal problem will be built into what major mechanical component for this model. They always have (at least) one. Perhaps they will re-invent a timing belt disaster, like they re-invented gearbox shaft splines wearing out on the Puma.

[Gazzar]

I vote for a wiring loom issue.

 

[Gazzar]

I know, soft target, Land Rover and electrics.