Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[FridgeFreezer]

All this grumbling and no-one's appreciating the fact that LR are clearly testing the thing off-road.

If they didn't care, as many here are claiming, they wouldn't be spending millions of pounds in R&D dragging it over rocks in Moab etc. (How many other manufacturers bother? Do we believe a BMW X5 prototype has ever been rock-crawling?)

For all the grumbling, LR take off-road ability more seriously than most others - the fact they even do it with the likes of the Evoque deserves a bit of credit, especially if you hold it up against its competition.

 

Jamie's comments about the exhaust hanging down miss the point too - that's the same idea as the freelander and it works well - banging the exhaust makes a terrible noise but is ultimately harmless and lets you know you've run out of clearance. Likewise the front ARB was the lowest point at the front and is a robust but ultimately non-critical part that you could hang the car on (much like a Defender gearbox crossmember) without causing damage, and the CLONK lets you know you need to back up. Compared to the low-hanging fruit of major drivetrain components you see protruding under other SUV's it's very elegant design. I'd rather replace a £50 back-box than poke a rock through the rear diff.

I don't see a problem basing it on the D5 - they based the Defender on the Range Rover platform after all - same thing, different century! Air suspension may be novel on a utility 4x4 but then coil springs and disc brakes were novel on a 4x4 in 1983 - and are still novel on plenty of modern 4x4's, and no-one's bitching about the Defender being too fancy compared to proper leaf springs and drum brakes

[Ex Member]

Except, independent suspension with short arms is worse than live axles off road.  This is just a plain simple fact.  If you disagree, you don't understand the physics or do not have the experience.

Multi link live axles with coil or air springs works better than leaves.  Leaves as springs can be made to work, but there are still compromises and you really need to add some linkage and at that point, there is no reason to use them anymore.  Leaves were used as they provide a simple linkage and spring in one, not because they were the best solution.

These are pictures of the Defender.  Production has started...  This is not R&D.  It is just reliability checks.

As to the D5, this is a picture of one with the bumper off.  Nobody with ten minutes of off road experience would put oil cooler in front of the front wheels.

 

[FridgeFreezer]

4 hours ago, Red90 said:

Except, independent suspension with short arms is worse than live axles off road.  This is just a plain simple fact.  If you disagree, you don't understand the physics or do not have the experience.

Which is why all those trophy trucks, Baja racers, Dakar buggies, and all modern cars use independent suspension I guess... it'll work fine, handle better, and I will still bet you that the new Defender is more capable from the factory than the original Defender was from the factory.

[reb78]

I still wont be able to afford one so these are all moot points to me!

[western]

1 minute ago, reb78 said:

I still wont be able to afford one so these are all moot points to me!

you & me But I am looking forward to seeing it when eventually revealed for sale

[Bowie69]

I am about as enthralled by this as I am the Brexit debacle over in Westminster - both have gone on far too long and I just wish they would get on with it!

[reb78]

Haha^^^ that sums it up Bowie!

[BogMonster]

Beautifully put!

It's all made up carp and it'll never happen anyway...

[Jamie_grieve]

7 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

All this grumbling and no-one's appreciating the fact that LR are clearly testing the thing off-road.

If they didn't care, as many here are claiming, they wouldn't be spending millions of pounds in R&D dragging it over rocks in Moab etc. (How many other manufacturers bother? Do we believe a BMW X5 prototype has ever been rock-crawling?)

For all the grumbling, LR take off-road ability more seriously than most others - the fact they even do it with the likes of the Evoque deserves a bit of credit, especially if you hold it up against its competition.

 

Jamie's comments about the exhaust hanging down miss the point too - that's the same idea as the freelander and it works well - banging the exhaust makes a terrible noise but is ultimately harmless and lets you know you've run out of clearance. Likewise the front ARB was the lowest point at the front and is a robust but ultimately non-critical part that you could hang the car on (much like a Defender gearbox crossmember) without causing damage, and the CLONK lets you know you need to back up. Compared to the low-hanging fruit of major drivetrain components you see protruding under other SUV's it's very elegant design. I'd rather replace a £50 back-box than poke a rock through the rear diff.

I don't see a problem basing it on the D5 - they based the Defender on the Range Rover platform after all - same thing, different century! Air suspension may be novel on a utility 4x4 but then coil springs and disc brakes were novel on a 4x4 in 1983 - and are still novel on plenty of modern 4x4's, and no-one's bitching about the Defender being too fancy compared to proper leaf springs and drum brakes

Are they testing it off road? Have you actually seen any video or pictures to that effect? I haven't but of course I  may have missed it. I believe it was purely a publicity stunt and nothing else. They've had that same suspension for at least 4 years, what's left to test?

Testing compared to the competition? Well, the competition would appear to be Jeep and G wagon as they arranged for their stunt. The Jeeps already did the 'trail approved' thing years ago, have the badge on the wing and land rover is playing catch up here. G wagon has the history and development that doesn't need mentioned and is constantly conducting trials for various military and international organisations that JLR will have to try hard to get into.

I disagree with your comments on the exhaust, it's quite frankly a ridiculous place to put a piece of thin metal which when squashed will seriously damage the engine and your chances of getting home. Contrary to what you may believe, diffs don't get damaged scraping them on the ground like exhausts do.Your comments on this surprise me actually, You don't just poke a rock through a diff, millions of live axles out there prove you wrong, it's not impossible, it just doesn't happen. The placement of the exhaust is not an elegant design, it's just plain stupid like the oil coolers that Red90 posted. It's not a design feature to alert you to reaching the available ground clearance , it's a poorly executed afterthought like the oil coolers. Hitting those low hanging fragile looking alloy lower arms will be a different story to hitting a much higher steel axle case on a rock, it'll be interesting to see how they last when they get hit and how the tyres fair when the bushes flog out if this is actually the final design which I doubt.

I'm with Red90 on this, he clearly stated short arm independent which is not used on any of the vehicles you mentioned. There has never ever been a successful independently sprung commercial vehicle, not the Pinzgauer, Tatra, Hummer, Champ, Gipsy, Mutt, DAF etc, they've all been one hit wonders and all sharing the same instability, maintenance and reliability issues. Try looking at this from a fleet user or remote areas operation standpoint where simplicity, whole life costs and durability come into play and less from a JLR fanboy perspective to understand many of our legitimate concerns.

 

[Ex Member]

2 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Which is why all those trophy trucks, Baja racers, Dakar buggies

They have long arm independent suspension.  Even then it is not as good.  The serious off roaders tried it and all went back to live axles.

[simonr]

13 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

All this grumbling and no-one's appreciating the fact that LR are clearly testing the thing off-road........................

John, that's the most sensible post I've read on this topic so far!

As some will remember, I've built both Air and Independent suspension on different vehicles.  Rather too many people told me I clearly didn't understand the physics (😉) if I thought independent would be any good.  I wanted to try it BECAUSE so many people dismissed it, all quoting the same 'diff being low when the suspension is compressed' reason.  You would be forgiven for thinking that because every thread on every forum is full of people repeating it.  I found a few threads where people had actually tried it (on Pirate) and said it worked pretty well.  They were universally flamed for 'not understanding the physics'.  I thought I'd see for myself, rather than just repeat the same old mantra.   It wasn't perfect - but it changed my perception.  The occasions where the low centre were an issue were surprisingly rare.  Where it shone was on bumpy hill climbs where your wheels bouncing lose you more traction than lockers could gain.  The IS just managed to keep all the wheels on the ground more of the time.  Even without lockers (it didn't have any) it would out-perform beams.

You could approach hill climbs faster as it would soak up the inevitable pot hole at the bottom of the climb without bouncing on to it's roof.  Some obstacles required a different approach, often using the better dynamic stability to your advantage.

Both types have advantages & disadvantages - but I believe IS gives you more overall, even if it does underperform beam axles in a few specific situations.

I hope the bodyshell is just a mule - as that's the bit that looks disappointing to me.  I'd hoped for something like the new Jimny, something that looks really cool & distinctive.  What we've seen so far, just looks like another RR clone.

If the body is decent, I do plan to buy one.  More-so now I've seen it has IS and Air!

[Happyoldgit]

Time will tell me old muckers, time will tell...

[Eightpot]

I would guess they aren't looking to impress trialers, rock crawlers or pay and play types, probably not even 4x4 fleet buyers - Land Rover are very much a fashion brand now and will cater for the largest audience, not a small fanatical niche.  As long as it beats a jeep or a tank on Top Gear or whatever show, job done.

Only problem is the longer they drag this out, the less anyone cares 😐

[discomikey]

On 4/14/2019 at 11:19 PM, Jamie_grieve said:

I was just gonna post the exact same pictures, you all beat me to it.
Can anybody confirm any differences in the defender replacement rear suspension pictures from Moab and the discovery 5? I'm not intimately familiar with the disco 5 but that looks pretty much identical to how I think they look. Are we actually being hoodwinked here? Are they testing the torsional stiffness of the new body perhaps with old disco running gear to keep the real thing under wraps?
I can't believe they'd launch the defender replacement with disco 5 suspension. Don't get me wrong, the disco 5 suspension is great and perfectly suited to a discovery which is on road 99% of the time or towing trailers but not for a Defender replacement. I also don't think it would have taken so long to develop and launch if it was just a reworked disco 5. I thought the Defender replacement was going to be on an all new platform anyway?
Also, the exhaust actually runs under the suspension and is the lowest point on the vehicle in an area very likely to contact the ground, there's no CTIS visible,  antiroll bar disconnects or any other modifications to make it more robust or improved for off road prowess, same tiny half shafts too. nah, I think this is another marketing stunt to try and generate interest like the ones to coincide with the Paris motor show. They just happened to park up and let a bunch of journalists take pictures next to two competitors vehicles? 

It's D7U platform.. L405 L494 L460 and now L663. 

It's been around for a while it will be running these subframes.

Those "tiny halfshafts" take a lot of shirt off road and in 3+ years of that subframe use in rally raid haven't caused a single issue, and I still stand by my previous statement that the D7u Platform walks all over old defender off road. They have reportedly been spotted completing some notoriously difficult trails out there in the past few weeks. 

I don't think it would have been planned per say to have some randomers turn up and take photo's, but they will know it's a popular trail and count on it! They obviously want poeple to see it out and about in the trails. 

[Cynic-al]

I was always putting holes in my diff pans, usually because the crummy bolt on protector had fallen off in a puddle somewhere, and I would usually find someone elses crummy bolt on protector that had fallen off in a different puddle as a replacement  The gears used to make the clearance necessary as I drove and I used to carry the plumbers leak fix putty stuff to get me through the rest of the day which only worked if you could get the metal oil free enough for it to stick. Every one I've had regardless of make I've ended up welding thick bits of plate to the pans to stop them getting holes in. Maybe I just can't drive  

[discomikey]

22 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

All this grumbling and no-one's appreciating the fact that LR are clearly testing the thing off-road.

If they didn't care, as many here are claiming, they wouldn't be spending millions of pounds in R&D dragging it over rocks in Moab etc. (How many other manufacturers bother? Do we believe a BMW X5 prototype has ever been rock-crawling?)

For all the grumbling, LR take off-road ability more seriously than most others - the fact they even do it with the likes of the Evoque deserves a bit of credit, especially if you hold it up against its competition.

 

Jamie's comments about the exhaust hanging down miss the point too - that's the same idea as the freelander and it works well - banging the exhaust makes a terrible noise but is ultimately harmless and lets you know you've run out of clearance. Likewise the front ARB was the lowest point at the front and is a robust but ultimately non-critical part that you could hang the car on (much like a Defender gearbox crossmember) without causing damage, and the CLONK lets you know you need to back up. Compared to the low-hanging fruit of major drivetrain components you see protruding under other SUV's it's very elegant design. I'd rather replace a £50 back-box than poke a rock through the rear diff.

I don't see a problem basing it on the D5 - they based the Defender on the Range Rover platform after all - same thing, different century! Air suspension may be novel on a utility 4x4 but then coil springs and disc brakes were novel on a 4x4 in 1983 - and are still novel on plenty of modern 4x4's, and no-one's bitching about the Defender being too fancy compared to proper leaf springs and drum brakes

Well said!

there are far too many nay-sayers for which any new vehicle will never be good enough unless it looks like a unimog and takes 40" tyres from the factory. 
I know from experience that platform IS robust!

If you take a top class ultra4 car off road, you can break it. You can sit here and predict certain components will fail on even the most robust platform! 

There have also been defender mules rolling around on coil springs for those who combust into a ball of flames when mentioning compressed air. 

[Happyoldgit]

Many of the nay sayers on the enthusiast forums are not new but second or third owner vehicle buyers. JLR are manufacturers, their primary concern are financial returns from new vehicle sales, they are not daft and will target what they see as their largest customer base.

[Mo Murphy]

We're all doomed, I tell ye !

Sharpen your pitchforks and prepare to defend these hallowed pages.

Mo

Well, maybe they can have the Evoque page 😂

[Mutley]

There's a rumour that the MoD has put an order in for 150 of these new Defenders!

Mainly to scatter round Salisbury Plain, to be used as target practice when Tanks go on exercise!

[steve b]

You modernist with your pitchfork  , I'm staying with my sharp stick  , proven tech after all

Having watched the reactions to coils , PAS and disc brakes when the 110 came out and then all the humble pie consumed after actually using them and the 90 properly , this is little different . At that time the Range Rover was not considered a true part of the LR stable either ....

Add into the cauldron the different demographic that JLR are firmly squared up to now and the Defender replacement would always be based on the current successful ( sales , and that is all that counts ) range and be firmly in the top end of spec's and sale value  

cheers

Steve b

[Tanuki]

1 hour ago, Happyoldgit said:

Many of the nay sayers on the enthusiast forums are not new but second or third owner vehicle buyers. JLR are manufacturers, their primary concern are financial returns from new vehicle sales, they are not daft and will target what they see as their largest customer base.

Precisely: JLR are in the business of making money; if the medium/upper-segment 4x4 market is where the sales are then that's clearly where they will target.  [pragmatically, it costs pretty much the same to staff/run the production-line/supply-sourcing/dealer-support-network to sell a £120,000 car as it does to sell a £20,000 car - and the £120,000 one generates significantly more profit].

I don't see why air-suspension is seen as such an absolute no-no as it's being portrayed: for making a big heavy vehicle handle sensibly at speed and tow well, it's great! (I feel many of the naysayers have never done a fast-and-heavy 350-mile tow down a windy motorway - under such circumstances you'll be happy to take all the electronic-stability-and-comfort-assists on offer). 

Did the vehemently anti-air-suspension crowd complain back last-century when those evil Coil-sprung Defenders with power-steering, ABS, a heater that worked, and other 'luxury fripperies' appeared?

Personally I think the proposed "Defender 3.0" looks right for its intended target-market: people who will buy/lease one (new) as a daily-driver that will also tow their caravan/horsebox/race-car-trailer, don't want to get bogged-down on campsites/showgrounds/trackside paddocks, and will swap it for a new one after five years/50,000 miles. 

In time I hope the prejudice against 'unnecessary modernity' has faded if only because it'll mean I'll get a better price for my then 5-year-old Defender 3.0 !!

 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Tanuki

[Eightpot]

Air suspension makes loads more sense for a Defender - you wonder why it was never an option before.  Gone is the dilema of which springs to fit, putting up with tall boingy springs on the motorway or jarring your bones on HD's when there's no load in the back.  Much better on corrugated dirt roads, and drop the height and save a few bucks on long motorway journeys. 

Lets see if they can resist the urge to put huge discs/rims and low profile tyres on.

 

[reb78]

There's nothing wrong with air but let's hope they keep it simple. A switch for 3\4 heights instead of five ECU's placed where they will get wet and fail... Air on the D2 and D3 is nice IME especially if you tow. Perhaps build in a failsafe (the mod for the D2 is just a Schrader valve after all!!).

 

It does add an additional long term service item though - many recommended replacing air bags every five years or so before they fail (certainly on the D2). IME you can push this but they will go at some point.

 

Ditch the other unnecessary carp like electric handbrakes - FFS what's wrong with a lever?! I look at the one in the d3 and just wonder why on earth they thought that load of plastic (even some of the drive mechanism is plastic) was a good idea!

[BogMonster]

The theory of air suspension is great, it's the practice that sucks, some (or a lot) of which could be down to the way it's implemented.

The pro-air folk have obviously never had to drive a vehicle on flat suspension for 30 or 40 miles along rough potholes gravel roads on the bump stops after the bong bong bong shhhhhhh. It just isn't dependable if you're going anywhere remote, the limp home mode is massively crippled, and nor is it easy to fix (haunted by memories of 2mm differences in the floor level when trying to calibrate Discovery 3 suspension at the dealership).

Air has proven to be consistently fairly unreliable in harsh environments and unsealed roads, the springs fail and so does the control gear. Nearly every Discovery 2 in this country has long since been modded back to steel springs.

Some of that may be Land Rover specific, but do we think they've worked out how to make air suspension when the P38, newer RR, Discovery 2, 3 and 4 all have questionable air suspension systems? I don't have much faith in that, though I accept that choosing it as an option might be essential to maintain decent off road clearance, as it is on the Discovery 3/4.

[elbekko]

Air suspension dependability in remote areas is fixed with a push-fit schrader valve and an air compressor. The bags themselves are hardly failure items, unless you run them for 20 years without looking at them. Just like other rubber components, like tyres.

For me the trade-off of a bit of extra maintenance is so worth it for the versatility of air suspension. Towing, heavy loads, aerodynamics at high speed, ground clearance at will, ...

Plus, it allows independent suspension to work better off-road by cross-linking the bags, mimicking a live axle.

I'm honestly interested in the new Defender. If it's somewhat affordable, offers a BIK-friendly hybrid option, and doesn't look like arse I'd seriously consider one for the future.