Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[reb78]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Oh hell no, they introduced plenty of new ones also, very much joking!

 

One thing I do find curious is the specific cutoff point that people imagine constitutes a "proper" Defender and whether there's a consensus among the grumblers - for example, the 200TDi era featured a popular engine but old-fashioned interior and body cappings that rusted, the TDCi had sought-after doors and seats but people don't seem to like the dashboard... why are people OK with the complexity of a TDi vs an N/A but not a TD5 or TDCi, coils are preferred to leafs but how very dare Land Rover fit independent suspension to the next version, power steering and disc brakes are OK but ETC isn't...

It feels a bit like there's a rose-tinted idea that Land Rover ruined something perfect when in fact it was never so, and that's why everyone here is always busily modifying, upgrading, and repairing their vehicles.

I think you have highlighted the issues with your own examples - 200tdi is simple, minimal electronics, TD5 and TDCi had lots of ECUs and sensors that introduce their own problems, more complexity, more failure points and are harder to troubleshoot (I have a 200tdi a TD5 and  a TDV6 whilst the TD5 isnt too hard to problem solve it is harder than the tdi and likewise the TDV6 isnt impossible but it is harder than the other two)

Power steering is relatively simple and mechanical as are disc brakes, but ETC introduces unnecessary complexity in my opinion. We looked at buying a new defender in 2014 (ish) but i couldnt find one without ETC and the TDCi engine seemed to have no improvements over my tdi (the tdi honestly went just as well!) so we gave up.

Springs vs leaf - i just dont care, they both do their job.

[geoffbeaumont]

2 hours ago, Gazzar said:

Are you saying the last 20 years of defender production were without serious wrinkles?

Fridge said the worst wrinkles - not all the serious ones... 😀

[Daan]

It is because a tdi, power steering, disc brakes all don't involve electronics, so you can fix them yourself. A TD5, TDCI, ETC and air suspension do need electronics to work, so you need a specialist to fix it......OR become a specialist yourself. But learning old dogs new tricks is almost impossible, so we stick with no electronics.

For Land rovers, I wave the non electronics flag,  but this is mainly because of the harsh environments that I tend to go to. For my road car However I have looked into it, and it appears that the diagnostics are  quite accessible these days, with read out units from £15 on Ebay, so the market has caught up with electronics. I think it is just a matter of time that people get more used to this, especially now disco3s and newer range rovers are so cheap. It just means one more tool in the box to DIY it basically.

[geoffbeaumont]

2 minutes ago, Daan said:

It is because a tdi, power steering, disc brakes all don't involve electronics, so you can fix them yourself. A TD5, TDCI, ETC and air suspension do need electronics to work, so you need a specialist to fix it......OR become a specialist yourself. But learning old dogs new tricks is almost impossible, so we stick with no electronics.

For Land rovers, I wave the non electronics flag,  but this is mainly because of the harsh environments that I tend to go to. For my road car However I have looked into it, and it appears that the diagnostics are  quite accessible these days, with read out units from £15 on Ebay, so the market has caught up with electronics. I think it is just a matter of time that people get more used to this, especially now disco3s and newer range rovers are so cheap. It just means one more tool in the box to DIY it basically.

And owners who just change out parts "'cos the computer sez" are no worse than many garage techs. Or, frankly, many of the bodgers who've "fixed" older land rovers. Who on here has never bought an old vehicle (land rover or otherwise) that turned out to have dangerous cowboy bodge fixes? Incompetence doesn't require the aid of electronics...

[FridgeFreezer]

I don't see diagnosing a problem with a TD5 or TDCi as being worse than the idea of rebuilding an injection pump - you can troubleshoot common stuff with a cheap multimeter or OBD reader and a basic understanding of how the system works, no different to a basic understanding of mechanics... electricity has been around a while now! How many common faults are just a dodgy wire or a £5 sensor gone bad, that's far easier than a lot of mechanical problems.

Also it's not like no-one ever changed the wrong mechanical parts repeatedly in trying to track down a funny noise or random problem.

ECU's themselves rarely go wrong, and as we proved on Mouse, they will survive hours underwater if they're properly sealed - BTW we did NOTHING to the stock ECU other than mount it up high out of harm's way... until it sank and then the only reason it ran funny was swamp in the fuel tank. If it'd been on carbs we would've been doing open-carb surgery in a field and might never have gotten it going again.

[Cynic-al]

Mine would run in water until the steering column got under water. It then randomly put all the wipers and lights on and engaged the starter whilst the engine was running. The saving grace was it then switched from petrol to LPG but as I had taken the LPG tank out it stalled, flooded the engine with water and engaged the starter against it which blew the cast starter housing apart. The ECU was ok though. Fun day and limits learnt! 

[L19MUD]

1 hour ago, Cynic-al said:

Mine would run in water until the steering column got under water. It then randomly put all the wipers and lights on and engaged the starter whilst the engine was running. The saving grace was it then switched from petrol to LPG but as I had taken the LPG tank out it stalled, flooded the engine with water and engaged the starter against it which blew the cast starter housing apart. The ECU was ok though. Fun day and limits learnt! 

I think your idea of fun and mine are quite different!

[Happyoldgit]

I was quite happy with the TDCI's I bought new, no grumbles about the dash or superior heating and longer legged gearbox. They were excellent while still under warranty and a phone call would result in a LR Assistance van arrive PDQ. I only got rid of my last 110 XS USW that I had covered less than 10,000 gentle miles in two years from new when two dealers were unable to rectify a non electrical, purely mechanical clunk around the back end, frustrating when the vehicle went back and forward for a variety of new bits including rear diff. In the end they started getting arsey about picking the 110 up for warranty attention and delivering courtesy vehicles ["new policy is you have to come in and sign for courtesy vehicles sir"] so it was time to end a 40+ year relationship with LR's. Sure I had an idea what the issue was. Sure I could have started pulling it apart myself but no, not on your Nelly after forking out £30,000+ for a new vehicle still under warranty. With dealerships at 50+ miles away it's a morning out to deliver a faulty vehicle and again to pickup after they say it's been fixed, only to find it hasn't.

It's a was a new truck that I needed to use, not a DIY hobby in itself along with untold faffing around with dealers who had little interest in the model which by that tie was looked upon as a run out dinosaur from another era. All the "heritage" twaddle is so much marketing BS. The vast majority of people don't buy new vehicles in the expectation that they can fix it themselves, not any more and especially not in the UK. Older simpler vehicles yes sure but not new stuff. It ain't the 1950's any more.

And breathe..... 😁

[FridgeFreezer]

17 minutes ago, Happyoldgit said:

The vast majority of people don't buy new vehicles in the expectation that they can fix it themselves, not any more and especially not in the UK. Older simpler vehicles yes sure but not new stuff. It ain't the 1950's any more.

Amen to that!

Funnily enough a mate of mine with a TDCi 110 had similar back-and-forths for rear diffs under warranty, as soon as it was out of it he swapped a Salisbury on and lived happily ever after

[Happyoldgit]

"I know it's 8:30 on Sunday morning dear and am well aware that we are due at your mothers for lunch at 1, but the Morris has just tripped over 3000 miles since the last oil change so I'm just going to do that and change the plugs and points and give her a decoke, pump the tyres then a wash a leather before we set off"

[deep]

So, to summarise the last few pages: The first Land Rovers were quite basic and people who bought them fully expected to have to set points and tappets etc. and use grease nipples frequently.  They weren't concerned if oil seeped out here and there and a few drips of water seeped in.  The odd broken half shaft or gearbox which popped out of gear weren't surprising and easily dealt with. 

Move forward a few decades and points, tappets and grease nipples were no longer so important but otherwise little changed with the cars - but the owners were becoming far less tolerant.

Move forward a little more and cost-cutting didn't help reliability.  Further, there was now a second layer of complexity/unreliability imposed by electronics, with few remaining car owners having any tolerance for things going wrong, no matter how easy the fix.  

By this stage, the "opening" of the furthest reaches of the world, which Land Rovers had spearheaded, had near enough finished.  The rough stuff had been largely replaced by formed tracks and pretty much any four-wheel drive would get there.  The market for an ultra-basic, easy to fix utility vehicle had shrunk massively (and Land Rovers were no longer ultra-basic anyway).  Not to mention the loss of a military market, which no longer accepted driving over land mines with no real occupant protection!  There was more profit to be made by appeasing the prevalent hunger for toys, gizmos, gimmicks and bragging rights, which came about through the boredom of modern society, trapped in cities and dreaming of adventure rather than living it.  

So a vastly more complex Land Rover was born, which the handful of remaining purists are aghast at and the modern gimmick-lovers will mortgage their lives for.

What have I missed?

[Ozzy50]

As long as Defenders are available second hand does any of this really matter ? The luddites and the purists can take their pick from a basic 2 1/4 petrol 90 right up to the last Tdci 110 xs which let’s face it apart from a little bit of electronics is the same vehicle whilst the trend followers and modern buyer (?) can pay through the nose for the latest Defender (when it’s finally released) PLUS once the new one is released there will be plenty of high spec (high spec 🤣) REAL defenders on the market for those who prefer it . It’s a win win as far as I can see . 23 pages of discussion proves that there is s great passion for the defender and land rovers in general although god knows why as Land  Rover the company couldn’t give two hoots about the loyal owners of “classic” landies who are the ones who built the legend . Makes no odds to me , I can’t afford a new defender and from what I’ve seen of it so far I don’t want one either , I’m happy with my 110 (or should I say I will be when it’s built ) . Just my tuppence worth 

James 

[Bowie69]

Cheap, basic and fixable doesn't make as much money shiny, toy-laden, mobile gadgets.

That is all.

[Happyoldgit]

2 hours ago, Ozzy50 said:

As long as Defenders are available second hand does any of this really matter ? The luddites and the purists can take their pick from a basic 2 1/4 petrol 90 right up to the last Tdci 110 xs which let’s face it apart from a little bit of electronics is the same vehicle whilst the trend followers and modern buyer (?) can pay through the nose for the latest Defender (when it’s finally released) PLUS once the new one is released there will be plenty of high spec (high spec 🤣) REAL defenders on the market for those who prefer it . It’s a win win as far as I can see . 23 pages of discussion proves that there is s great passion for the defender and land rovers in general although god knows why as Land  Rover the company couldn’t give two hoots about the loyal owners of “classic” landies who are the ones who built the legend . Makes no odds to me , I can’t afford a new defender and from what I’ve seen of it so far I don’t want one either , I’m happy with my 110 (or should I say I will be when it’s built ) . Just my tuppence worth 

James 

 

But, but, but JLR are in the business of building new vehicles, not endlessly supplying bits for umpteen year old examples of motoring history from yesteryear. To my mind "The legend" only came about as a result of Land Rover magazines and a few books promoting the vehicles as such, and that was not that many years ago.

[Mo Murphy]

I think they perhaps meant leg end.

Mo

[Cynic-al]

16 hours ago, L19MUD said:

I think your idea of fun and mine are quite different!

That's why, despite being road legal, it went everywhere on a trailer. Then I could roll it on, change clothes and settle into a leather seat with the heater on and a selection of DAB stations and meander home with the cruise control set instead of being sat at the side of the road, wet, in the dark, with a stuck brake and a failed wheel bearing and headlights full of water. I only lived the one life for a few hours at a time. A fair weather one lifer 

[neil110]

On 5/15/2019 at 2:50 PM, reb78 said:

Springs vs leaf - i just dont care, they both do their job.

Difference being if you break a leaf spring it is possible to carry out a repair that will get you home. Break a coil and repair is not a possibility.

I remember reading in an old magazine about a temporary fix of a leaf spring still being in place a year later and the vehicle still being in daily use.

[Bowie69]

Ratchet strap and a block of wood will make a good replacement for a coil spring as a temporary measure.

Though my grandad did tell me of how he managed to hold together a spring pack on a jeep in South America with nothing more than some mole grips - and this was the 1950s....

With a little though, most things can be overcome when the problem is physical.

 

[neil110]

On 5/15/2019 at 11:00 PM, Bowie69 said:

Cheap, basic and fixable doesn't make as much money shiny, toy-laden, mobile gadgets.

That is all.

As a former colleague opined many years ago. Cars are no longer marketed or advertised as transport. They are more like jewellery. When did you last see an advert for a car which  mentioned things like the engine, gearbox, fuel economy, carrying capacity or anything remotely practical? 

More typically the adverts depict the car as a lifestyle accessory, possibly mentioning the onboard camera, the infotainment system and pretty much bugger all else

[FridgeFreezer]

neil110 is right, 90% of the public don't care at all, they just want a shiny box that gets them from A to B, ideally fully electric and self-driving.

[Anderzander]

A to B whilst ‘expressing their lifestyle values’ ....

[Mo Murphy]

Perhaps they could become new 'Billing Overlanders' that FF has alluded to in another thread ? 😊 

Mo 

[Happyoldgit]

3 hours ago, Mo Murphy said:

Perhaps they could become new 'Billing Overlanders' that FF has alluded to in another thread ? 😊 

Mo 

 

The ones that have their "mechanics" fit all their gizmo's and polish their alloys for them?

[Mo Murphy]

4 minutes ago, Happyoldgit said:

 

The ones that have their "mechanics" fit all their gizmo's and polish their alloys for them?

Bless them.

They do look very manly and tough though in their expedition beige shirts and bush hats and to be fair I don't think many people realise just what an exhausting drive it is from the leafy suburbs to Billing in a 'truck' whilst complaining loudly over the engine noise that 3 tons of top heavy 110 on tall coil springs doesn't drive like this year's new 7 series which is quite wrong for a new car.

Still, it's not about what you do, more what you appear to do 😉

Mo 

[Anderzander]

Whilst us hardcore buggers live in a country with no wilderness navigate the Darién Gap as our daily commute.