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Jamie_grieve

Thoughts and musings on the new defender

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Posted (edited)

Just having a mooch at some Russian off road mucking about on youtube and came across this one with a RR SVX vs some soft roaders and an FSO - I think I'm still pretty happy with my beam axles and lack of traction aids!  (Didnt show the defender which was there for some reason, would have been a good comparison)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_ZPwm9vsGs

Edited by Eightpot

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1 hour ago, Eightpot said:

Just having a mooch at some Russian off road mucking about on youtube and came across this one with a RR SVX vs some soft roaders and an FSO - I think I'm still pretty happy with my beam axles and lack of traction aids!  (Didnt show the defender which was there for some reason, would have been a good comparison)

Given the SVX was on pure road tyres with a clearly inexperienced driver I thought it did pretty well?

Considering the only "proper" 4x4s there were a G-Wagen on Simex with Ladoga numbers and a jacked-up Patrol. None of the others looked like they got any further than the SVX, and I'd doubt the G-Wagen or Patrol would've had any success on road tyres on that site.

What I would bet is that with a set of AT's or MT's that SVX would go a hell of a long way and likely give all comers a run for their money.

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I reckon it would have got a bit further up if the traction control let it get a bit of a run up as well.. - don't think the driver was helping much either,  probably had it on the wrong setting

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5 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Bull.The TC system isn't complex or vulnerable - it's using technology that's been around for 30+ years already. I'd take Eightpot's scenario in something with HDC over a Defender, D1 or RRC any day. It might not be the entertaining option, but it's definitely the most sure-footed, wheel in the air or not.

I was referring to the suspension - that was the general context of that part of the discussion.  The TC works well, at the cost of brake wear, but decent suspension travel would save a lot of that, as would locking or ATB diffs.  Jeep fitted them as standard on the Rubicon, and LR should be doing the same on a vehicle of this price.  AS I said before, EAS is an expensive and short living system in the middle East, but TC is also a problem, sapping power in sand - those who venture out onto the dunes all pull the ETC fuses as it's more likely to get them stuck than get them out.  When you look at the bling and ticket price on this new vehicle, it seems that the Middle East is a big target market.

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If it is going to be running the Disco running gear then presumably the rear locking diff will be an option I hope!

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On 6/1/2019 at 2:01 AM, Jamie_grieve said:

I recently measured a disco 5 half shaft at 30mm so it'll snap at a similar threshold to any of the 24 spline stuff we know already, I wonder if the defender replacement which uses the same platform and suspension will have any unique parts in the drivetrain other than damping and spring rate settings?

That's assuming it's made from the same material and treated with the same processes,

These shafts are undoubtedly stronger than defender halfshafts and have proven to be so on multiple occasions. I'm sure a large factor in this is the excellently smooth power delivery through the 8 speed auto box. somewhat protecting the driveshafts from a lot of the shock loadings seen through a manual gearbox drivetrain. 

All i know is they take 575PS and over 700Nm torque off road... a defender shaft does not. Is that strong enough for you?

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4 minutes ago, discomikey said:

 

All i know is they take 575PS and over 700Nm torque off road... a defender shaft does not. Is that strong enough for you?

Don't bring material specs & knowledge into this rose tinted bun fight 😂😂😂

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On 6/6/2019 at 10:45 AM, FridgeFreezer said:

Bull.The TC system isn't complex or vulnerable - it's using technology that's been around for 30+ years already. I'd take Eightpot's scenario in something with HDC over a Defender, D1 or RRC any day. It might not be the entertaining option, but it's definitely the most sure-footed, wheel in the air or not.

Here here. 

poeple often forget the limits of a standard defender off road. Most here will have lots of experience no doubt, but with modifications to their vehicles to make them perform better off road. Lockers, mud tyres, lift kits, all developed to ensure defenders are better than factory. 

In a situation where it really matters, and there are two cars, a Defender and a L663 both sat there, 100% standard and on road tyres. Im picking the 663 every single time. Traction control is not a fix of poor design. It is far superior to a locked center and two open axle differentials. Is it superior to unlimited travel and full lockers? In most situations no. But that isn't what an old standard defender is...

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10 minutes ago, discomikey said:

All i know is they take 575PS and over 700Nm torque off road... a defender shaft does not. Is that strong enough for you?

No, not even close. The horsepower figure is completely irrelevant, a 30mm 300M shaft likely to yield around 6000lbs ft of torque can easily be broken by a 1/2hp drill motor and a hydraulic pump. 700Nm of torque is equally irrelevant as I'm totally guessing here that your lowest overall gearing is way lower than say 10:1 so it only tells me that the vehicle you refer to is incapable of putting it's torque to the ground either by light weight or poor traction.

Regardless of you not managing to break a 30mm shaft, many people have and most other manufacturer of 4x4 utility vehicles have thought similarly and put larger shafts in.Toyota are 33mm, that's the benchmark, Mitsubishi are 36mm, Nissan rears are 40mm. Everything American is at least 35 spline 37mm. Why would they want to continue with the tradition of weak drivetrains? The autobox for sure must be what's saving them. Does that preclude the defender replacement from having a simple manual gearbox? Because there aren't any funds or willingness for decent drivetrain components?

I'm sure Mr Ashcroft knows a thing or two about making 30mm shafts yet they can't be used on tyres over 35" and many have broken his shafts with smaller tyres in competition. I doubt there would be more than a 10% difference in strength between his fine products and anything JLR will mass produce.

The heat treatment and material specs are very unlikely to be any different than any commercial grade of stock you or I could buy off the shelf. How hard exactly have you actually been trying to break them?
 

Please tell us more about how strong or indeed weak any other parts of the D7U platform are given your extensive testing thus far.
Thanks.

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30 minutes ago, RedLineMike said:

Don't bring material specs & knowledge into this rose tinted bun fight 😂😂😂

Wrong, if you go back and actually read the previous posts you'll see that this Topic was started to encourage technical discussion and thus far Discomikey has actually been one of the main exponents of technical discourse. Please feel free to add something of technical value as he has too.

 

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I’m going to keep banging the same drum because counter claims have failed to convince me.  Traction control is no substitute for long travel suspension, as clever as it is.  This is meant to be an off-road utility vehicle, so short travel independent suspension is not what it needs - that’s what you give road cars.  As I hav said several times, ETC is a bad thing on soft sand, not a benefit, so locking diffs are essential in the desert.  Relying on ETC to overcome mechanical shortcomings is not a good approach.  By all means, add the electronics to further enhance appropriate mechanical systems, but not to replace them.  This car is clearly built with limited off road ability, and the tyre and wheel choice make the biggest statement about that.

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11 hours ago, Jamie_grieve said:

Wrong, if you go back and actually read the previous posts you'll see that this Topic was started to encourage technical discussion and thus far Discomikey has actually been one of the main exponents of technical discourse. Please feel free to add something of technical value as he has too.

 

I think RedLineMike's comments were of a humorous nature and should be treated in that manner.

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7 minutes ago, Snagger said:

I’m going to keep banging the same drum because counter claims have failed to convince me.  Traction control is no substitute for long travel suspension, as clever as it is.  This is meant to be an off-road utility vehicle, so short travel independent suspension is not what it needs - that’s what you give road cars.  As I hav said several times, ETC is a bad thing on soft sand, not a benefit, so locking diffs are essential in the desert.  Relying on ETC to overcome mechanical shortcomings is not a good approach.  By all means, add the electronics to further enhance appropriate mechanical systems, but not to replace them.  This car is clearly built with limited off road ability, and the tyre and wheel choice make the biggest statement about that.

Ah, but you, and others here it seems, are making the assumption that JLR are intent on producing utility vehicles that would sit well and be useful in the commercial bracket. I would suggest the trends over recent years prove the opposite seems to be the case.

Videos of university gap year and charity types in shorts slipping oversize tracking collars over the necks of tranquillized lions after negotiating dusty trails in a road biased vehicle is simply a marketing ploy to tap into 'heritage', it does not prove that the company is in the least bit interested in returning to building true utility vehicles that can be fixed by hammer weilding beardy blokes 20 years hence.

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No, I’m not making that assumption  at all.  I’m saying this vehicle is no more off-roader or utility vehicle than the D5 it shares a platform with.  It is being presented as something it is not, and the name is inappropriate.

LR have made it abundantly clear ever since they overpromoted McGovern and started guzzling his Coolaid that they consider the blue collar worker an embarrassment to be shunned.  Most of this is due to Tata’s attitude, and it’s a big driver in their current predicament.

It will be interesting to see whether moving production to a far cheaper source of labour has a beneficial or detrimental effect on build quality (beyond what is robotic) and their reputation for quality and reliability issues.

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1 minute ago, Snagger said:

No, I’m not making that assumption  at all.  I’m saying this vehicle is no more off-roader or utility vehicle than the D5 it shares a platform with.  It is being presented as something it is not, and the name is inappropriate.

LR have made it abundantly clear ever since they overpromoted McGovern and started guzzling his Coolaid that they consider the blue collar worker an embarrassment to be shunned.  Most of this is due to Tata’s attitude, and it’s a big driver in their current predicament.

Then we are in accord and all is well with the world😎

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14 minutes ago, Happyoldgit said:

Then we are in accord and all is well with the world😎

Thread closed?

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1 hour ago, Happyoldgit said:

 true utility vehicles that can be fixed by hammer weilding beardy blokes 20 years hence.

So, if I don't have a beard in 20 years time I won't be able to fix my Land Rover with a hammer ?

So the fascist state advances, and I thought we were living in a progressive society.

I'm going to hold up my red card and go to my safe room now as I am truly offended (possibly on behalf of someone else)

and I'd just like to register my disapproval of the post after this one (with thanks to Viz)

Mo 😲 

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26 minutes ago, Gazzar said:

Thread closed?

No, the rest of us aren't finished yet, we're still arguing about the same things 28 pages later with nobody seemingly reading the others posts.
It's generally along the lines of:

Longbeards. The  Defender had all these shortcomings, will the replacement address x, y and z?

Hipsters. (in response to the above) The abs, etc, hdc, means this new vehicle will go anywhere and will be better than every other new vehicle off road (which by law also has to have abs, etc, hdc), the old defender without these features could never do that. Have you never been in a modern JLR product with air suspension?

Longbeards.  But there are basic rules and physical constraints about making a proficient off highway vehicle, wheel travel, ground clearance, approach, departure and breakover angles...

Hipsters.  (in response to the above) The abs, etc, hdc, means this new vehicle will go anywhere and is better than every other new vehicle off road (which by law has to have abs, etc, hdc), the old defender without these features could never do that. Have you never been in a modern JLR product with air suspension?

Longbeards. We get that the electronics help but, back to the basics..

Hipsters.  (in response to the above) The abs, etc, hdc, means this new vehicle will go anywhere and will be better than every other new vehicle off road (which by law has to have abs, etc, hdc), the old defender without these features could never do that. Have you never been in a modern JLR product with air suspension?

Longbeards. We know the old one was rubbish but it kinda worked because of basic geometry and it was easy to fix.

Hipsters.  (in response to the above) The abs, etc, hdc, means this new vehicle will go anywhere and will be better than every other new vehicle off road (which by law has to have abs, etc, hdc), the old defender without these features could never do that. Have you never been in a modern JLR product with air suspension?

 

And so on and so forth...

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Got you.

Thread open, minds not so much.

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Prefer leaf springs myself. Less bars and arms and stuff. Dead simple.

 

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Yeah but according to The Jetsons we should all have hover boards and flying cars that ran on some imaginary force by now. I feel so cheated so I'm off to watch Born Free which at least had proper Land Rovers and 🦁

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1 hour ago, Gazzar said:

Prefer leaf springs myself. Less bars and arms and stuff. Dead simple.

Leaf springs, no carpets, manual steering, normally aspirated, no servo brakes, no centre diff, 4-speed no synchros - after all, the rest is just modern fluff and hipster nonsense that just adds complexity and makes it harder to repair :SVAgoaway:

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I know the ride wasn't that comfortable and articulation was poor, but the Flintstones vehicles are back to basics..... Not them fancy leaf springs.... Pah.. Way too modern.... And Gears !!!!! Gears..... Just pedal faster with the feet.....

 

Many of the "Longbeards" types on here are still upset the 200tdi was replaced.... Shame on Land Rover for upsetting them....

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50 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Leaf springs, no carpets, manual steering, normally aspirated, no servo brakes, no centre diff, 4-speed no synchros - after all, the rest is just modern fluff and hipster nonsense that just adds complexity and makes it harder to repair :SVAgoaway:

Yep.

When the internet breaks, and the computers all die, I'll still be driving.

Plenty of diesel, and cartridges. All is good.

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