Jump to content
Jamie_grieve

Thoughts and musings on the new defender

Recommended Posts

This forum is largely about how our Defenders are under powered,  break , rust ,burn loads of fuel, are uncomfortable , noisy and easily stolen. (Don’t get me wrong I love mine).

If I had more time I’d zebra paint mine and drive it round Land Rover hq making it look like a mule. I bet the commmets would still be the same that it’s not a patch on the old one (mine is of course much better than original because it has a custom heater scoop 😉 ). Actually we should do that. Can anyone photo shop so zebra strips on a defender and we can start to circulate it ?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/12/2018 at 9:13 PM, Red90 said:

We don't want them like they used to be.  We want an improved version....  Not hard to do, if they wanted, but they don't.  Build a capable dual purpose vehicle for the average person.  Good on road and better than anything on the planet off road.  Durable, easy to repair in the bush, easy to upgrade.  The formula is easy to put together and they would make more money than they would know what to do with.

Make it fast, foolproof, with good ergonomics, decent aircon, nice interior trim and quiet enough that you can converse with your front/rear passengers or someone you're talking-to on a hands-free phone without shouting while you're cruising at 90MPH.

I honestly don't care about "easy to repair in the bush" - that's truly a fail-thinking mindset. JLR should be much more concerned with "minimal scheduled-service-costs/won't need to be repaired in the 50,000 miles/4 years of the lease". After that it's not their problem.

Admit it: Most of the people on this forum will not be buying one of these new. But JLR's business is making money and for that they need to be selling/leasing new cars. What the second/third-owner wants is not really what JLR needs to be addressing.

Truth is, these days most car-companies are really a finance-business that happens to loan money to people-who-want-to-drive-the-latest-car-model. $5K up front, then £500-a-month at 14.5% APR for 3 years. I'm not complaining about this; having retired at 54 it's part of my investment-income stream!

 

Edited by Tanuki

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, deep said:

Until you hit the first decent rut or have to straddle a rock or piece of wood more than eight inches high!  Get real.

At which point you pick a different line and carry on - I've off-roaded stuff from Mouse to saloon cars and I would happily bring my old Freelander 1 out to play against your Defender any day of the week.

Land Rover know what they're doing better than people here give credit for, it's a really odd attitude - the Defender is the best thing ever but LR are somehow a bunch of clueless clowns who ruin everything they touch?

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*Edit: Double-post, forum didn't update*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

At which point you pick a different line and carry on - I've off-roaded stuff from Mouse to saloon cars and I would happily bring my old Freelander 1 out to play against your Defender any day of the week.

Land Rover know what they're doing better than people here give credit for, it's a really odd attitude - the Defender is the best thing ever but LR are somehow a bunch of clueless clowns who ruin everything they touch?

Good grief!  First off, I never said Land Rover don't know what they are doing nor that their new vehicles aren't very capable.  I don't have that odd attitude.  (Nor do I have a Defender.  My 110 is older than that.)  Think, though, how good a Land Rover could be if it combined the electronic trickery with a suspension system that kept four wheels on the ground...

On the other hand, I have done a lot of off-road work over the years and really, really wish your Freelander wasn't half a planet away so that I could rub your nose in it!  Your "different line" just is not available once a few full-size vehicles have been through the inevitably narrow tracks we have to face.  Not to mention the rocks I thread my way through along the river every summer.  I don't want to argue but, seriously, that is a completely unrealistic attitude.  Freelanders may be wonderful in their place but they have little wheels, low ground clearance and high gearing.  Physical constraints.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll just be happy if there is an option to have 3 pedals and a wobbly stick. It's very difficult to get any 4WD here that is not an auto now. 

Cheers,

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you want defender esk there are two companies that spring to mind one is German, hideously expensive and looks similar to the second company. 

 

For those that have no idea what I'm on about g wagon and ibex. I obviously have the later but I'm a luddite and built a truck with almost no electronics. The f8 can have all the toys you want with good engines sound deadening etc etc. The g will do the same you just need a mortgage to buy it.

The defender is dead accept it. It will not be replaced. JLR will build something to complete in a market place that consists of crew cabs, pick ups and utility wagons. It will be as good or better than the competition. It will not be a defender replacement. 

I love the classic mini for similar reasons to I love the defender. The bmw mini is not a mini it's a damb good car but not a mini.

The best 4x4 land rover ever produced is actually a discovery 1 it saved the company from bankruptcy, went everywhere the 90/110 could, was warm and dry, quiet and comfortable. 

The freelander is surprising capable it will cope with way more than you think. It's far better than a defender in the snow (mind so is d3, L322 onwards). Over here there rarely isn't another line to take. But the key thing is fridge is comparing it to a stock defender on road tyres. Yes ruts will defeat a freelander. But cross axle will defeat a defender. So on balance there is little in it but it's not a fair comparison anyway. A D3 on the other hand is a different matter.......

I'll stop rambling and go now.

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd argue that most of us on here are driving Defenders or Series because they are noisy, rattly and a bit carp. We justify that by saying that they have 'character' - they bring a smile to your face when you get in it and turn the key, or when a little kid stares as you go past because it's a bit different. People see them as being 'cool' - if I take my 110 to work people comment on it, take the 322 and nobody bats an eyelid. 

LR can built something that has all the technological wizardry they want, built on a shared platform, etc etc etc - but unless LR retain that character/cool it's just another generic 4x4 vehicle that slots neatly into their range. 

I think Jeep have been very clever with the new Wrangler (dodgy welding aside) - they've updated it but all the Jeep fans still love them...

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Tanuki said:

I honestly don't care about "easy to repair in the bush" - that's truly a fail-thinking mindset. JLR should be much more concerned with "minimal scheduled-service-costs/won't need to be repaired in the 50,000 miles/4 years of the lease". After that it's not their problem.

If you are doing any real off road travel, you will break things.  It is nothing about reliability.  You can't avoid damage.  Whether or not you can get it going well enough to get out or need to walk for four days is important if they wanted to build a world leading vehicle for remote travel.  That was the original point of the Land Rover.  We do trips where we are days of driving from the nearest human regularly and have yet to leave a vehicle behind.  The things they are building today are built in a way that will leave you stranded.  Critical systems are exposed to easy damage and are impossible to fix.  Toyota and Keep can do it.  Land Rover could, but they do not have the correct will, not do they have the correct designers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

At which point you pick a different line and carry on - I've off-roaded stuff from Mouse to saloon cars and I would happily bring my old Freelander 1 out to play against your Defender any day of the week.

You would last five minutes on any real trail before you were left behind.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This isn't a willy-waggling competition you guys - the FL's specs/capabilities are not so very far off a standard Defender yet everyone pooh-poohs them offhand just like they're doing in this thread to a totally imaginary prototype vehicle. And my POINT is not about either vehicle, it's about the fact that Land Rover make what their market requires - 70 years ago it was something which could do duty as a tractor, take the sheep to market and the family to church on Sunday... but that's not the market now and it's daft to demand LR make something for a market which largely doesn't exist.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't muse over something I know SFA about yet nor pass any sensible comment based on photos of a camouflaged something or other being driven somewhere or other. This thread like so many others on the subject on t'internet is mostly conjecture based on very little if anything at all.

My last few Defenders were bought new, if they were still producing them would I buy new again - no. No matter how strong the rose tinted specs they were just not value for money and dealers increasingly unwilling to deal with an essentially hand-built vehicle of variable quality. Some enthusiasts put up with the low standards but your average motorist or commercial user will not.

JLR are clean a lifestyle brand now, not a military, mucky construction, agricultural, utility company or jungle bashing any longer. Those days have gone.

I well remember the shock horror among some quarters when Land Rover adopted coils over leaf springs.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of you want a new defender, wait for Ineos to finally get round to making something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/13/2018 at 7:56 PM, FridgeFreezer said:

At which point you pick a different line and carry on - I've off-roaded stuff from Mouse to saloon cars and I would happily bring my old Freelander 1 out to play against your Defender any day of the week.

Land Rover know what they're doing better than people here give credit for, it's a really odd attitude - the Defender is the best thing ever but LR are somehow a bunch of clueless clowns who ruin everything they touch?

:hysterical:

This was one of many taken on the Freelander 2 launch event in 2006, can't remember how many tows I notched up by the end of the week but it was quite a lot. We just parked the Defenders either side for the photo, as the driver at this point was a LRE instructor showing what the vehicle was capable of :lol:

DSCF0696.thumb.JPG.5149391ece492b417252143479b99b6b.JPG

Electronic traction aids are fine on test tracks or light off road conditions and work well while they work, but they aren't up to any sort of sustained use. I was away in pretty wet conditions with a bunch of people a couple of weekends ago with a Discovery 2 shod with MTs - two full days driving. I honestly can't remember how many times the ETC overheated and shut down on the second day but it was into the dozens, and they really aren't much good in one wheel drive.

The last bit is easy to explain ... no part of the Defender was built by the current bunch!

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Red90 said:

If you are doing any real off road travel, you will break things.  It is nothing about reliability.  You can't avoid damage.  Whether or not you can get it going well enough to get out or need to walk for four days is important if they wanted to build a world leading vehicle for remote travel.  That was the original point of the Land Rover.  We do trips where we are days of driving from the nearest human regularly and have yet to leave a vehicle behind.  The things they are building today are built in a way that will leave you stranded.  Critical systems are exposed to easy damage and are impossible to fix.  Toyota and Keep can do it.  Land Rover could, but they do not have the correct will, not do they have the correct designers.

The D7u Platform is no more complex in that sense than defender. 

 

All linkages and arms are held on with bolts.. in the bush these bolts can be removed and replaced.

Our Bulldog rally cars run D7U based platforms. We and our drivers can repair and have repaired these in the middle of morocco. Components have failed half way through 200+km stages and they have limped back to service

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, BogMonster said:

This was one of many taken on the Freelander 2 launch event...

Ah, I see two completely standard defenders in that picture... :rolleyes:

And yes, each vehicle has its weak points but then an FL or D2 or P38 has a lot of strong points over a 90, this isn't about cherry-picking examples where X is better/worse than Y, my POINT is the massive negative conjecture about a vehicle we know almost nothing about, and nay-saying of things like independent suspension with no good reason.

I mean, someone in this thread actually cited the PCD of the wheels as proof it would be totally rubbish, what the hell are people in here smoking?

You can argue with the styling and the complexity of some of LR's stuff certainly but you really can't sensibly argue with how capable it is compared to almost anything else on the market .

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“what the hell are people in here smoking?”

Mix of diesel fumes and EP90? 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We seem to have strong opinions - but I’m not certain people are really disagreeing are they? 😳

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is allowed you know :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Anderzander said:

The Defender is Dead, Long Live the Grenadier....

https://projektgrenadier.com/

What a load of marketing exercise that says exactly nothing about what they're building.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure that's an entirely accurate description of the content on the site. If you read the news articles and watch the videos it is pretty clear.

Initially I think hey were looking at bringing something to market in 2020/2021.

They have 200 German engineers working on the project right now, so I think they are pretty serious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read a bit, noted use of words such as extreme, icon, adventurer etc., then watched watched 3/4 of the video where much of the usual guff is spouted about the Defender, then a cut to shots of Mitsubishi, Suzuki and Daihatsu playing about in the woods before I got bored and went back to dealing with e-mail.

Next?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/14/2018 at 8:55 PM, FridgeFreezer said:

This isn't a willy-waggling competition you guys - the FL's specs/capabilities are not so very far off a standard Defender yet everyone pooh-poohs them offhand just like they're doing in this thread to a totally imaginary prototype vehicle. And my POINT is not about either vehicle, it's about the fact that Land Rover make what their market requires - 70 years ago it was something which could do duty as a tractor, take the sheep to market and the family to church on Sunday... but that's not the market now and it's daft to demand LR make something for a market which largely doesn't exist.

I like Freelanders, but their ability is very dictated to the terrain. On something slippery like snow, sand or wet grass the TCS allows them to be quite effective. Arguably more so than an open diffed non TCS Defender.

But there is an Everest between their off road abilities once you go a little further off road or include any technical off road sections. The lack of ride height, articulation and poor approach, departure and breakover angles make them significantly less capable. The lack of low range also compounds this.

The result of this is, they are forever lifting wheels and feel very unstable. And I daresay far easier to roll over. They get beached easily and end up stuffing their bumpers into the ground, which usually stops them and/or lifts the wheels off the ground. And without low range, you can't crawl over obstacles either. So due to the gearing and general lack of ability you have to attack obstacles at much higher speed to have enough momentum to get through them. This however is potentially damaging to the underside of the vehicle, uncomfortable to be in and has much higher risk of something going wrong and should something go wrong, the higher speeds mean the result of going wrong is likely to be more dangerous and/or damaging.

 

 

 

As for the new Defender. I think LR have demonstrated that highly complex, expensive cross linked air based IFS/IRS systems can produce quite capable off road machines. Although ultimately probably less capable still than a live axle, as they still lack the stability and travel and wheel camber angles can become less desirable under certain conditions.

The sticking point for me is the cost and complexity. I don't want a Defender with expensive, fragile complex cross linked air suspension with a raft of sensors and control units. And if they ditch the cross linked air and go for coil suspension, it really won't be as good off road, for the simple fact the wheels are no longer directly connected. Just watch any videos of 3rd Gen Mitsubishi Shoguns (Pojeros) to get a feel for the capability. They aren't bad, but will generally get stopped where a stock D2 will walk up.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

We use cookies to ensure you get the best experience. By using our website you agree to our Cookie Policy