Jamie_grieve Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) You'd be as well comparing a panda to a quad bike as far as relevance to the defender replacement is concerned. We had an Audi 90 quattro years ago that had locking centre and rear diffs, it was way better than a defender on light snow and ice.but it's equally irrelevant to a discussion on utility vehicles. Neither a quad nor a panda can carry half a ton of supplies with a team over relatively bad terrain. You can push through surprisingly thick scrub with a defender that you can't do with a quad bike, there's a place for everything. What we're hopefully discussing here are technical aspects of the vehicle in the spy photos. Many people think of the defender as the ultimate off roader when it just never has been, it's always been pretty carp. It's not that good at carrying things, it's not very well made, the transmissions are made of cheese, the chassis are made from something so thin you could wrap a turkey for the oven with it. They're noisy, slow and uncomfortable. We all know this so why do we like them? I think Dailysleaze hit the nail on the head with many of his comments. Edited October 30, 2018 by Jamie_grieve 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 I don't have enough time to go through and reply to everything right now, perhaps later. in response to your question regarding what the bulldog actually is, please see below. Its not the best, nor the most representative video of what these cars endure, but it's something. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 18 hours ago, Eightpot said: This is quite a nice panda 4x4 off road compilation if you're not bored yet.. I’m not saying they aren’t impressive in their own right. But there are some issues. 1. Many of the vehciles in the vid looked very battered and battle damaged. Hardly a sign of being the best off road if they have to take damage to make progress. 2. One vehicle looked modified. The one featured the most. So not really apples to apples. 3. Quite a bit of footage appeared to still be on road. And the technical off road bits they mostly looked like they were struggling a lot more. Sure they are small and nimble, which off road can count for a lot. But those weren’t the points you were making. 4. You cited the Panda as being good off road because the current D4 and such Land Rovers are independent suspension. Yet the Panda isn’t with a lot of its ability coming from it live rear axle. 5. You also cited that articulation wasn’t important and the Panda was better than a Defender off road, ie due to not flexing. Yet the live rear axle on the Panda actually gives it pretty good articulation. And thus enhances its off road ability. Now don’t get me wrong. The Panda is actually pretty cool. But it’s off road ability is due to its size and sufficient ground clearance for its wheelbase and largely down to its live rear axle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_grieve Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 53 minutes ago, discomikey said: I don't have enough time to go through and reply to everything right now, perhaps later. in response to your question regarding what the bulldog actually is, please see below. Its not the best, nor the most representative video of what these cars endure, but it's something. WOW, that thing has some serious engineering in it but it probably has more in common with an aeroplane than a defender. Shame the time lapse was cut short. The Bowler brand carries a huge amount of credibility as they make some awesome stuff but I doubt many have been put to work. Would be like getting groceries in a formula one car. I'm not sure how that thing in the video would fair carrying an IBC of drinking water and a four ton trailer with a drill rig on it on an unsurfaced road? Possibly better than I imagine. The train of thought puts me in mind of the Foers Ibex which in my mind is probably how I imagine the defender should have gone had it been developed. John Foers was way ahead of his time 30 years ago. I'm interested in your earlier comments about wheel travel. Has the rear wheel achieved full droop by the second picture? It seems massively over damped? Any footage of a standard defender at the same place and speed? Second time I'm writing this, never ever ever buy a new apple computer, they used to be good, now they're garbage, living on their name, trying to be better, lighter and more efficient than before but made cheap and nasty and failing miserably when you actually need them. Remind you of any other modern brands? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 34 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said: I’m not saying they aren’t impressive in their own right. But there are some issues. 1. Many of the vehciles in the vid looked very battered and battle damaged. Hardly a sign of being the best off road if they have to take damage to make progress. 2. One vehicle looked modified. The one featured the most. So not really apples to apples. 3. Quite a bit of footage appeared to still be on road. And the technical off road bits they mostly looked like they were struggling a lot more. Sure they are small and nimble, which off road can count for a lot. But those weren’t the points you were making. 4. You cited the Panda as being good off road because the current D4 and such Land Rovers are independent suspension. Yet the Panda isn’t with a lot of its ability coming from it live rear axle. 5. You also cited that articulation wasn’t important and the Panda was better than a Defender off road, ie due to not flexing. Yet the live rear axle on the Panda actually gives it pretty good articulation. And thus enhances its off road ability. Now don’t get me wrong. The Panda is actually pretty cool. But it’s off road ability is due to its size and sufficient ground clearance for its wheelbase and largely down to its live rear axle. Dude you showed pics of heavily modified Defenders & Discos going over a bit of rough ground, but are knocking points off team Panda for being scuffed and maybe slightly modified!- to be fair I do think one of them had a half inch lift kit and a magic tree fitted 😄 Not sure my original point was understood but no worries, I'm not trying to play top trumps and I think I've ventured far enough down the rabbit hole this thread is turning into! I'm off to measure my pcd's... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/business/job-losses-likely-jlr-seeks-15354031 Should be another good excuse to axe the new model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 May have been posted here before? https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/first-official-pictures/land-rover/defender/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deep Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 "Defender Sport? Isn't that an automotive oxymoron?" Great quote from comments in that article! To be fair, though, some folk have chucked a lot of horsepower in Defenders and earlier Land Rovers and survived... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 On 10/30/2018 at 2:19 PM, Jamie_grieve said: I'm interested in your earlier comments about wheel travel. Has the rear wheel achieved full droop by the second picture? It seems massively over damped? Any footage of a standard defender at the same place and speed? It's not reached full droop by then, This video was very early in the suspension development process. It also has something to do with how the vehicles are set up to fly. I can't divulge much here for obvious reasons. Unfortunately not, the defenders that have been around there (on standard suspension setups) won't manage those speeds. The closest thing that will is our V6SC 110, but thats full coilover and a watts linkage rear end. On 10/30/2018 at 2:19 PM, Jamie_grieve said: I doubt many have been put to work. The cars regularly attend international events, where they are not loaded with cargo, but carry a whopping 221 litres of diesel, 3 spare tyres, an on board hydraulic jack system, etc etc, and can reach up to 3 tons in fully prepped long distance mode.. They also regularly see forces in excess of 3G according to our dataloggers. a lot of the fatigue images you showed were various pieces of "structural bodywork", which a defender's poor design results in higher cyclic loading due to body movement in comparison to a monocoque. Our "current" bodywork, is almost entirely different in construction even though visually looking the same. still, by no means perfect though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 Shamelessly pinched from another forum... https://www.autoblog.com/2018/11/05/2020-land-rover-defender-short-wheelbase-spy-photos/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic-al Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 The angle on the rear suspension looks like it has a reasonable amount of droop available, I wonder if it will have air suspension? That would be a nice feature for a part on road part off road vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 2 hours ago, Cynic-al said: The angle on the rear suspension looks like it has a reasonable amount of droop available, I wonder if it will have air suspension? That would be a nice feature for a part on road part off road vehicle. It is exactly the same suspension as the RRS. They are using the same parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Can’t imagine a stock new Defender being able to tackle the Rubicon... https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/tackling-rubicon-trail-jeep-wrangler-rubicon bit of a shame that LR are going to lose all credibility when it’s launched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_grieve Posted November 18, 2018 Author Share Posted November 18, 2018 4 hours ago, SteveG said: Can’t imagine a stock new Defender being able to tackle the Rubicon... I can see it tackling it but I doubt it would come out unscathed. It's going to have decent basics you'd think so the likes of approach, departure and break over would be sorted. In fairness the Jeep Rubicon has a pretty poor break over angle and the ground clearance isn't actually that good on them. Jeep had the best display by a country mile at the Geneva motor show this year and I was all over the new Rubicon. The pictures below show the clearance or lack thereof. That said, it would be easy to lift, was very well built and steering components were very much larger and stronger than anything ever fitted to a Land Rover. I understand that there are chassis problems with them and there's been a recall. There's a huge amount of plastic and unnecessary garbage on these new Jeeps too but I think the bare bones are very good from what I saw. I think the new defender replacement would have a similar capability and appeal to a Rubicon in many ways but that the Rubicon could be accessorised and made to do things the defender replacement could only dream of. At least Jeep had the decency to put off road tyres on their exhibits, as did Mercedes and a few others. Land Rover didn't even have a single vehicle on all terrains, let alone mud tyres as they were all on low profile road tyres. I was also disappointed that Toyota never had a Land Cruiser there. The Merc G wagon with Portals was the best thing there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic-al Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 I adore the rubicon and i amazes me they sell it in the UK. Lockers and dislocating arb on a factory vehicle! It's a shame they're downsizing the engines but I guess everyone is. If the pickup version ever comes off I could be tempted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 On 11/17/2018 at 9:17 PM, SteveG said: Can’t imagine a stock new Defender being able to tackle the Rubicon... https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/tackling-rubicon-trail-jeep-wrangler-rubicon I call BS, looking at the photos in that article a stock Ford Transit could tackle it FFS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 (edited) Just scanned the web for some pics of the Rubicon trail - came across this - room them six months to recover it 😲 Original forum post here if you have 20 mins to waste.. http://www.reno4x4.com/showthread.php/86444-Two-snowbound-rigs-on-Rubicon Edited November 20, 2018 by Eightpot 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Mental!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 On 11/18/2018 at 5:36 AM, Jamie_grieve said: I notice that they share one more thing in common with Land Rovers - rust before they're even used! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Somones snapped a pic of it wearing an interesting disguise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deep Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 That's actually the most promising pic I've seen yet. This is fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_grieve Posted November 28, 2018 Author Share Posted November 28, 2018 On 11/17/2018 at 9:17 PM, SteveG said: 1 hour ago, Maverik said: Somones snapped a pic of it wearing an interesting disguise... Must be planning to sell it to women in the Middle East? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Had good look round this the other day at the dealers. Hate the price and it’s sadly well beyond my budget. But the vehicle looks superb IMO. MT tyres as standard, nice interior and great spec. Have to say I thought the ground clearance and approach/departure angles looked superb. Easily as good as a stock Defender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 (edited) I've owned both a Rubicon and a 90 at the same time. The 90 has around 3" more frame clearance stock and does not have the problem of the transfer case hanging below the frame. The other downside is bigger on the outside and smaller on the inside. That aside, at least they have modernized without ruining it. They are good off road and you can build them to be great. You can sort of see in the photo. JK Rubicon on 35" tyres, no lift. 1991 90 on 34" tyres, no lift. Edited November 28, 2018 by Red90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 I don’t know how the JL compares to the JK on the points you make. Sorry didn’t get any pics of the underside. Will try and arrange a test drive at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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