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Jamie_grieve

Thoughts and musings on the new defender

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3 hours ago, Snagger said:

I’m going to keep banging the same drum because counter claims have failed to convince me.  Traction control is no substitute for long travel suspension, as clever as it is.  This is meant to be an off-road utility vehicle, so short travel independent suspension is not what it needs - that’s what you give road cars.  As I hav said several times, ETC is a bad thing on soft sand, not a benefit, so locking diffs are essential in the desert.  Relying on ETC to overcome mechanical shortcomings is not a good approach.  By all means, add the electronics to further enhance appropriate mechanical systems, but not to replace them.  This car is clearly built with limited off road ability, and the tyre and wheel choice make the biggest statement about that.

What do you reckon to both Toyota and JLR's (alleged) "dig itself out of sand" function, which utilises the ETC to do so? 

Toyota Tacoma Crawl Control

You can't deny that's impressive use of modern technology!

15 hours ago, Jamie_grieve said:

No, not even close. The horsepower figure is completely irrelevant, a 30mm 300M shaft likely to yield around 6000lbs ft of torque can easily be broken by a 1/2hp drill motor and a hydraulic pump. 700Nm of torque is equally irrelevant as I'm totally guessing here that your lowest overall gearing is way lower than say 10:1 so it only tells me that the vehicle you refer to is incapable of putting it's torque to the ground either by light weight or poor traction.

Please tell us more about how strong or indeed weak any other parts of the D7U platform are given your extensive testing thus far.
Thanks.

The shafts take flat-shifting through the autobox on various terrains, gravel, sand, tarmac, etc.

The autobox undoubtedly helps. Other competitors with manual boxes have destroyed larger shafts in the same competition. I'm not arguing that larger = stronger by any means. But the drivetrain package as a whole has been designed to take the same inputs in terms of driving style and "road" conditions, as those manual boxes, but less breaks. 

I'm not suggesting these are indestructable, we have had breakages of other components (Mostly due to crashing @ speed) but I certainly wouldn't say they can't cope

In terms of breakover, approach and departure angle, the new defender will be mostly equal to old when in off road mode.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, V8 Freak said:

I know the ride wasn't that comfortable and articulation was poor, but the Flintstones vehicles are back to basics..... Not them fancy leaf springs.... Pah.. Way too modern.... And Gears !!!!! Gears..... Just pedal faster with the feet.....

 

Many of the "Longbeards" types on here are still upset the 200tdi was replaced.... Shame on Land Rover for upsetting them....

you can't beat a horse for go-anywhere ability!

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28 minutes ago, discomikey said:

you can't beat a horse for go-anywhere ability!

 

We have several - sorted

Pearl01.jpg

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Mikey, that sand was very coarse, sharp and damp, which is a totally different game from fine, rounded dry sand.  But you’re missing my point - I have no objection to ETC; far from it - it seems to be excellent in most European conditions.  I am saying it is no substitute for long travel suspension on a vehicle that is marketed as a go anywhere utility.  The car should have both, and if it wants to compete with Jeep, should have ATBs to locking diffs in both axles, the former being a very simple fit. Saying that ETC can deal with everything is not true.  Remember how LR decided the D2 didn’t need centre diff lock because of its ETC?  I appreciate that this ETC system will be considerably more advanced, but the comparison holds, and what happens when you loose the ETC in the middle of nowhere?

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24 minutes ago, Snagger said:

  I appreciate that this ETC system will be considerably more advanced, but the comparison holds, and what happens when you loose the ETC in the middle of nowhere?

I guess if you do what they did on some D2s and have the CDL and ETC, provided the ETC doesnt leave you with the EML on going nowhere, you carry on in defender mode. Its when the ETC failure (and lets face it, JLR are great at introducing failures to reliable systems so it will happen), leaves you stranded that i think we should complain. Just like the brake switch, suspension collapse, no acceleration scenario in the D3.... (blimey, if that happened at speed on the outside lane of a busy motorway as you kick down to get out of the way of something it could be pretty dangerous!)

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6 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Leaf springs, no carpets, manual steering, normally aspirated, no servo brakes, no centre diff, 4-speed no synchros - after all, the rest is just modern fluff and hipster nonsense that just adds complexity and makes it harder to repair :SVAgoaway:

Damn - but for a turbo I was there !

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Modern safety, Japanese reliability, beam axles, good ground clearance, 3 link suspension, great approach and departure angles? 

Jimmy anyone ?

 

From their website you can kind of imagine what Land Rover’s could have been if they’d gone for a professional market: 

https://cars.suzuki.co.uk/new-cars/jimny/

 

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I think we all agree that jlr just aren't interested in utility.

And we all regret that.

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10 hours ago, discomikey said:

The autobox undoubtedly helps. Other competitors with manual boxes have destroyed larger shafts in the same competition. I'm not arguing that larger = stronger by any means. But the drivetrain package as a whole has been designed to take the same inputs in terms of driving style and "road" conditions, as those manual boxes, but less breaks

You’re missing the point, it’s been clearly demonstrated by vehicles in the utility sector for the last 100 years that 30mm is not big enough for a half shaft in a vehicle required to carry heavy weight over arduous terrain, especially one with locking differentials. Land Rover has not previously been known for quality materials or metallurgy, do you know something we don’t about new shaft making processes at JLR not available to other manufacturers?

 I know you believe your competitions to be a measure of the strength of something but they just aren’t.

Put the shafts in a test rig and get some numbers or do some calcs but talking about flat shifting in a vehicle clearly too light to put the power to the ground has just no relevance. You’ll see that the numbers don’t lie.

Competition rally raid use just isn’t that harsh compared to 10,000 hours carrying and towing tons of drill pipes for example. Components for race cars are allowed to be closer to the edges of their design envelope. I previously showed the types of wear, fatigue and damage that long term use brings. I’m confident that you never broke a factory steel wheel due to fatigue in any competition nor any Bowler has ever done so. There just aren’t the hours in the day for it. Until you have experienced and can become familiar with that type of mechanical abuse it’s going to be difficult for you to see where many of us are coming from, especially when these competition vehicles are generally using lightweight wheels and small tyres.

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19 hours ago, V8 Freak said:

I know the ride wasn't that comfortable and articulation was poor, but the Flintstones vehicles are back to basics..... Not them fancy leaf springs.... Pah.. Way too modern.... And Gears !!!!! Gears..... Just pedal faster with the feet.....

 

Many of the "Longbeards" types on here are still upset the 200tdi was replaced.... Shame on Land Rover for upsetting them....

Indeed, but enquiring minds always needed to discover how the axles were held in place...

 

flintstones.jpg

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Easy Mo, rear axle was driven, front axle got held in place as you applied torque to rear.

Front axle only had brakes, meaning it gets rammed in place, and rear axle stays where it is as it tries to catch up.

 

Simples :)

 

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44 minutes ago, Happyoldgit said:

Indeed, but enquiring minds always needed to discover how the axles were held in place...

They were safely wedged in...... (No loctite)

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46 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Easy Mo, rear axle was driven, front axle got held in place as you applied torque to rear.

Front axle only had brakes, meaning it gets rammer in place, and rear axle stays where it is as it tries to catch up.

 

Simples :)

 

Wasn't me ! 

Is this forum bullying ? RED CARD ! RED CARD ! I want to go to my safe room !

Where are all the bleeding hearts when you need them ?

Mo

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Didn't realise you were part of *that* generation, Mo ;) 

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A mere boy, me.

Possibly ...

Mo 😉

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Darn, I just realised I must be getting old, getting confused between people...

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While we all arguing about the replacement defender have a look at what the competition is offering. Both a electric pickup truck and SUV. https://products.rivian.com/

Now this is really something for the hipsters. I would be interested in what the engineers have to say about its specification in particular its approach and departure angles and grounded torque. It seems that both Ford and Amazon are both taking a bet by investing in it.

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5 hours ago, Mo Murphy said:

Is this forum bullying ? RED CARD ! RED CARD ! I want to go to my safe room !

Oh no.. Not another Gender Fluidity anxiety attack I hope..... 

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The Rivian looks pretty good, but all EV's suffer the same problems - batteries still suck, no matter how much they spin it they still take far too long to charge, don't hold enough, and the current crop have a propensity to turn into an unextinguishable metal fire if something goes wrong.

I'm all for electric being the future but right now it's the emperor's new clothes.

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3 minutes ago, V8 Freak said:

Oh no.. Not another Gender Fluidity anxiety attack I hope..... 

Is that like brake fluid ?

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5 minutes ago, Mo Murphy said:

Is that like brake fluid ?

No, it's much much stickier.

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Tesla are doing an electric pickup too which is going to be better than a 911 on road and better than an F150 offroad and cost less than $50k. apparently...

We have a new shape jimny at work, great fun, reminds me of my old SJ with the socket head screws holding the clocks on (although I think they're fake on this one), the two little vents on the bonnet and the view out the flat little rectangular window with the tiny wipers and square bonnet. It's great fun, infact possibly the most fun you can have on road at under 50mph as it really doesn't want to go any faster :rofl: I'm not allowed to take it to a play day for some reason :wacko:

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On 6/11/2019 at 2:19 PM, discomikey said:

What do you reckon to both Toyota and JLR's (alleged) "dig itself out of sand" function, which utilises the ETC to do so? 

Toyota Tacoma Crawl Control

You can't deny that's impressive use of modern technology!

The shafts take flat-shifting through the autobox on various terrains, gravel, sand, tarmac, etc.

The autobox undoubtedly helps. Other competitors with manual boxes have destroyed larger shafts in the same competition. I'm not arguing that larger = stronger by any means. But the drivetrain package as a whole has been designed to take the same inputs in terms of driving style and "road" conditions, as those manual boxes, but less breaks. 

I'm not suggesting these are indestructable, we have had breakages of other components (Mostly due to crashing @ speed) but I certainly wouldn't say they can't cope

In terms of breakover, approach and departure angle, the new defender will be mostly equal to old when in off road mode.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gttVJIyAdR8

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