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Jamie_grieve

Thoughts and musings on the new defender

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19 hours ago, soutie said:

While we all arguing about the replacement defender have a look at what the competition is offering. Both a electric pickup truck and SUV. https://products.rivian.com/

Now this is really something for the hipsters. I would be interested in what the engineers have to say about its specification in particular its approach and departure angles and grounded torque. It seems that both Ford and Amazon are both taking a bet by investing in it.

I agree with John that the batteries are the weak point at the moment, but there are supposed to be some big battery innovations coming along this year, especially silicon electrodes, which reduce weight, drastically reduce cost and charging times while massively increasing energy density.  That will change everything.  I haven't looked closely at the Rivian, but the Bollinger looks amazing from a functional stance (even if it looks like an uglified, home brew Defender copy).

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Where's the story on silicone electrodes then? I know there's been recent news about glass electrolyte but that's ~3yrs away if you believe the article.

What it does make me wonder is if the current generation of EV's are going to be rendered obsolete overnight when a breakthrough like this hits the market, your lithium-ion powered Tesla suddenly worthless like last-year's iPhone when the new one comes out :ph34r:

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Indeed, makes you realise also that these early EVs will truly be throwaway items, that get scrapped when their batteries are no longer serviceable -around 8 years for most they reckon.

There won't be any desire to replace the battery packs, as they will cost the earth still, and 8 years down the line any new EV will have a pack that last twice the range and gives far better performance for less money.

£40K on about the cheapest EV gets very expensive when you factor that in over just 8 years.

 

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So, lots of electric motors and inverters going spare in ten years? 

And cheaper better batteries?

That works.

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.... And a load of scrap vehicles being made into washing machines - that's the bit that grates with me, it is all smoke and mirrors, while the car companies get fat, and the tax payer subsidises them.

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I'm sure it's just a matter of time until one of us is building an electric defender from junkyard parts or online kits and racing them against the electric version of the defender replacement, well, if it's ever launched before we're all old and dead.
The torque delivery from electric motors really suits off road driving and generally it's all packaged in handy modules so should be easy for us to mix and match parts when the prices come down.

I can also imagine the future arguments on here when whatever the defender turns into gets all the ten year old range rover motor and controller tech and we start complaining about that instead.

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13 minutes ago, Gazzar said:

So, lots of electric motors and inverters going spare in ten years?

Only if they're compatible - TBH electric motors are not the hard problem, the battery is likely to be the biggest expense by a long way for a long time, and I can well imagine specific controllers being tied to specific battery packs, not without good reason either until batteries get a lot safer.

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Been talked about before... And I have looked into doing other vehicles.

By the time you pay 12k for the lion batteries, 4k for a controller, and 2k for a motor, you really are into it very, very deep indeed.

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EV West have a lot of this done, and the open source people are busy reverse engineering a lot of the clever stuff.

 

It will happen, and there'll be a EV "megasquirt" for us to play with.

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First to market - catering for silicon valley types that want EV VW beetles.  Limited supply of crashed Teslas.

 

That will change as the tech becomes pervasive.  

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Agreed, just waaaaay out of reach for Joe :)

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50 minutes ago, Gazzar said:

EV West have a lot of this done

Yeah but tidy though it looks I've not been convinced they really know what they're doing, much like the days of LPG installers - the motor & controller are easy but whipping a battery pack or three out of a crashed Tesla and hooking it up to whatever is a recipe for a large unextinguishable fire - there's a reason Tesla's battery packs contain massively complex electronics, the reason is "preventing flaming death" and even then it doesn't always work, never mind cobbling bits of it about without the full info (which Tesla are very reluctant to release even basic service manuals).

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Very true. 

Which is why I give it 10 years to mature.

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Anderzander, I have nothing against the Jimny, it's a cure little car and does look a bit like a Defender. Maybe even more so than the new Defender. There a bit small for my taste though, and when I got into one I was very disappointed by the interior. It makes the old Defender look like it's been well thought through and expertly put together. Switches were falling off of the demonstrator...

More on topic, I don't see the Jimny doing anything in those videos we haven't seen the new Defender mules do. In fact, there's nothing any standard LR wouldn't easily tackle. That's with non-standard tires on and they even admit the electronics need an appropriate driving style to wok properly. So while I kinda like it, I don't see how it can be used as an argument against whatever LR is coming up with. Maybe it looks better, but that's a very personal opinion.

As for EVs, there is a fundamental problem to fast recharging. If you want to charge a 50kWh battery (which is rather small) in say 10 minutes (which is a lot longer then filling up with petrol, diesel or even LPG), you need the charger to put out 300kW on average. Unless you're running on real high voltage (kV), that's a lot of amps going through a cable! And requires a big expensive charger, producing a lot of heat but sitting unused most of time.

Filip

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The new vw electrics - which are a ground up electric not a retrofit, are going to be compatible with the new high speed chargers, we just don't have any chargers yet. Obviously at home my house has a 100A 230v supply, but at home speed isn't so much of an issue, out and about they can do higher voltage charging, and the car communicates with the charger and sets the rate so that can be got around so long as they can make it idiot proof levels of safety. 

Electric is much more efficient than a fuel engine so you don't need as much energy in the battery as the fuel but it's still a lot of battery per litre of petrol. Thats why the retrofits don't really work so well. I had a go in a golf electric and it was obviously built to suit the production line, ie drop an engine / gearbox combo in one, drop a packaged motor / gearbox / drive in the next. There was still a full size engine starting battery, I get why you don't want to rely on the traction batteries as you still want other systems to work when they go flat but is that really the best solution or just the most convenient? Then the batteries were just shoved anywhere, where the spare wheel should be, under the seats, and they still only got a range of 80-100 miles. Performance wise it drove very much like a 1.6 petrol, obviously no gear change so it can react a bit quicker, a eternity quicker than an automatic, although you do live your life trying to keep the power needle in the low consumption range when running and the regen range when slowing. Completely changes your driving style.

I'm not against EV but I wouldn't buy one yet.

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1 hour ago, Cynic-al said:

my house has a 100A 230v supply

Yes but your street doesn't have an infinite supply, you'd be surprised how quickly the local transformer trips out if everyone comes home & plugs their EV in at 6pm.

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That's a good point. Hopefully, we'll have efficient solar roofs and batteries in most houses by then.

I do see problems with high density housing. But then that's route for car share and subscription motoring solutions.

The future, tricky, huh?

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18 minutes ago, Gazzar said:

That's a good point. Hopefully, we'll have efficient solar roofs and batteries in most houses by then.

I do see problems with high density housing. But then that's route for car share and subscription motoring solutions.

The future, tricky, huh?

Work on growing more veg oils and designing engines to run on them properly - none of this electrikery nonsense....

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I think we can't get much more stuff out of the soil without GM, unless we plough the rainforests. Or, controversial, reclaim the Sahara (my favourite).

But wind and solar is doable. Sort of. 

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1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Yes but your street doesn't have an infinite supply, you'd be surprised how quickly the local transformer trips out if everyone comes home & plugs their EV in at 6pm.

They are proposing smart chargers which communicate with the grid. The charge rate is set by available supply, there was even talk of discharging plugged in cars to balance renewable production. Not that I have a huge amount of faith in these things working, we've been trying to get northern grid to remove an illegally placed meter on our land and give us a reliable power supply for many years at work and it's still in process. 5 powercuts in the last 2 weeks with a total off time of 48 seconds. Each power cut creates me 2 hours of work to get everything going again. That's if nothing dies in the power cut. 

This is what I don't understand about the proposed wireless in road charging, how much current would need to flow down the M1 for that to work?

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Wireless charger in the road.

Ummmm.  

I can see lots of problems with that. 

Rats eating cables, how to invoice, EFFICIENCY, EFFICIENCY, EFFICIENCY, and efficiency being the main ones.

A catenary and pantograph system is a lot cheaper and more efficient, but, again: getting the cost charged to the user will require some secure smarts on the vehicle.

Big advantage is that it's extremely tried and tested as a concept in urban environments, and had been concept proven in extra urban scenarios by experienced truck makers.

 

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Wireless charger in the road.

Ummmm.  

I can see lots of problems with that. 

Rats eating cables, how to invoice, EFFICIENCY, EFFICIENCY, EFFICIENCY, and efficiency being the main ones.

A catenary and pantograph system is a lot cheaper and more efficient, but, again: getting the cost charged to the user will require some secure smarts on the vehicle.

Big advantage is that it's extremely tried and tested as a concept in urban environments, and had been concept proven in extra urban scenarios by experienced truck makers.

 

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the obvious answer is scalectrix rails in the road, it helps the power and self driving problems :rofl:

Teslas latest self driving system is currently banned in the EU due to safety 

When you plug in an EV to a charger now it identifies itself to the charger, it displays your numberplate, I'm sure that could be done wirelessly or just report consumption via a mobile network and you get a bill. And I'm sure someone will hack it for free charging :lol:

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/990524/Wireless-charging-roads-electric-cars-UK

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/12/worlds-first-electrified-road-for-charging-vehicles-opens-in-sweden

All interesting, but not there yet for me.

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On 6/11/2019 at 11:27 PM, Jamie_grieve said:

You’re missing the point, it’s been clearly demonstrated by vehicles in the utility sector for the last 100 years that 30mm is not big enough for a half shaft in a vehicle required to carry heavy weight over arduous terrain, especially one with locking differentials. Land Rover has not previously been known for quality materials or metallurgy, do you know something we don’t about new shaft making processes at JLR not available to other manufacturers?

 I know you believe your competitions to be a measure of the strength of something but they just aren’t.

Put the shafts in a test rig and get some numbers or do some calcs but talking about flat shifting in a vehicle clearly too light to put the power to the ground has just no relevance. You’ll see that the numbers don’t lie.

Competition rally raid use just isn’t that harsh compared to 10,000 hours carrying and towing tons of drill pipes for example. Components for race cars are allowed to be closer to the edges of their design envelope. I previously showed the types of wear, fatigue and damage that long term use brings. I’m confident that you never broke a factory steel wheel due to fatigue in any competition nor any Bowler has ever done so. There just aren’t the hours in the day for it. Until you have experienced and can become familiar with that type of mechanical abuse it’s going to be difficult for you to see where many of us are coming from, especially when these competition vehicles are generally using lightweight wheels and small tyres.

I wouldn't just say the competitions are a measure of strength. The platform has been released since 2013 under Range Rover.

How many failures have you ever seen of that particular shaft? 

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