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Jamie_grieve

Thoughts and musings on the new defender

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18 hours ago, Tanuki said:

TBH I can't really worry about what-it-looks-like. When you're driving it you're not looking at it. [this is my excuse for only washing my Defender once a year - the day before it goes in for its MOT].

Certainly seems to be the attitude of a significant number of Land Rover's customer base. Judging by the number of Discovery 5's on the road...

 

18 hours ago, Tanuki said:

[OK, so I have sympathy for the late Colin Chapman's mindset that "aerodynamics are only of interest to those whose engines are underpowered" - but a decently-aerodynamic vehicle can make towing a trailer at 75MPH while passing a convoy of 56MPH-limited trucks across the Thelwall Viaduct in a gale a lot less of a buttock~clenching event]

I rather suspect Colin Chapman wasn't concerned with how pleasant his vehicles were for long distance motorway travel... Sufficient power for high speed cruising with porta-cabin air resistance doesn't solve the the deafening roar...

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On 6/18/2019 at 2:33 PM, Jamie_grieve said:

I've been a land rover enthusiast for 40 years, why would I do that?

Out of curiosity, how long have you been involved in the industry?

Long enough, 

I also race in Ultra4 Europe, so I get the big tyres/Lockers/massive flex argument. But many of these features are hardly applicable to a consumer level fleet vehicle. 

My current job also contrasts this whilst still remaining in the off road vehicles sector. 

I don't have a figure of how many miles and/or types of terrain I have covered off road, but it's enough to take a good grasp on what is suitable for use by a large consumer market. 

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On 6/18/2019 at 5:39 PM, Bowie69 said:

@discomikey
works at Tomcat Motorsports, I believe , and races/prepares/engineers these things.

I am certain LR will have yaw/other movement sensors that can sense how well something is gripping. They are(have been?) world leaders in this tech, I would think they could solve the problem which you have thought of by just pondering for a few minutes.

 

Close enough, 

Development Engineer at Bowler. 

The TC system is highly advanced, as - is the torque vectoring system. (basically one and the same) It does take into account steering input, engine load, engine speed, wheel speeds, current gear, pitch, yaw, Rear and center E-diff status (Locked-unlocked and everywhere between), steering angle and hundreds more. 

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The problem with what there seem to be trying to produce is that the only market share they are going to win is what they lost with the Disco 5.  So, at best, they are back to where they were in 2016.   This vehicle is not going to win over any Landcruiser, Patrol or Wrangler buyers.  I doubt it will sway many that are planning to purchase similar priced SUVs (BMW, Audi, Volvo, MB).  It is really unclear to me as to what market they are expecting to win over.

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17 minutes ago, Red90 said:

The problem with what there seem to be trying to produce is that the only market share they are going to win is what they lost with the Disco 5.  So, at best, they are back to where they were in 2016.   This vehicle is not going to win over any Landcruiser, Patrol or Wrangler buyers.  I doubt it will sway many that are planning to purchase similar priced SUVs (BMW, Audi, Volvo, MB).  It is really unclear to me as to what market they are expecting to win over.

LR does seem to be god at making vehicles that sell.... but always seems to be at the cost of others. For example I still don’t see the point in the Velar.... 

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They just seem to be competing with themselves to me. They compete with their jag SUV as well! 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, landroversforever said:

LR does seem to be god at making vehicles that sell....

Really?  Maybe from a UK perspective.  From a world perspective, they are not.  They had a chance to make serious gains by taking a chunk of the huge Wrangler and Landcruiser market.  Even a small chunk would have been a huge gain for such a small car maker.  But they do not seem to want to take on anything new.  Just a little chip into the tiny market that they currently cover.

Edited by Red90

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5 minutes ago, Red90 said:

Really.  Maybe from a UK perspective.  From a world perspective, they are not.  They had a chance to make serious gains by taking a chunk of the huge Wrangler and Landcruiser market.  Even a small chunk would have been a huge gain for such a small car maker.  But they do not seem to want to take on anything new.  Just a little chip into the tiny market that they currently cover.

hubris
/ˈhjuːbrɪs/
noun
noun: hubris
  1. excessive pride or self-confidence.
    "the self-assured hubris in Gerry McGovern made his team’s life hell"
    synonyms: arroganceconceit, conceitedness, haughtinesspridevanityself-importanceself-conceitpomposity, superciliousness, feeling of superiority; More
    hauteur;
    informaluppitiness, big-headedness
    "the self-assuring hubris among economists was shaken in the late 1960s"
    antonyms: modesty
    • (in Greek tragedy) excessive pride towards or defiance of the gods, leading to nemesis.
Origin
5501be146e0a187df4bfb76543926e84c46d22ef

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48 minutes ago, elbekko said:

I enjoyed the little reference to Series Land Rovers with the red/yellow knobby lever on the dash.  Less so some vulnerable pipework under the diff on the coil-sprung pics.  Presumably that will get tidied up.

I wonder if this thing is being designed to allow a centre front seat, at least in more enlightened markets?  If they really do produce a coil-sprung option, that will make a few people very happy, enough that they might even buy one!

I must say, I have enjoyed the last five years or so of speculation, particularly the detective work over the last year.  I might even be a bit sad when the new Defender actually gets released and I'll have to read something different over breakfast...

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4 hours ago, Red90 said:

I doubt it will sway many that are planning to purchase similar priced SUVs (BMW, Audi, Volvo, MB).

I thought people wanted the Defender to be a proper 4x4, last I looked aside from the G-Wagen none of those guys make proper 4x4's they all make soft-roaders?

Also, I thought the quote about aerodynamics was by Enzo Ferrari not Chapman, I thought Lotus were early adopters but I could be wrong.

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19 minutes ago, deep said:

Less so some vulnerable pipework under the diff on the coil-sprung pics.  Presumably that will get tidied up. 

That looks to me like a temp sender for the diff, tapped into the drain plug.

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9 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Also, I thought the quote about aerodynamics was by Enzo Ferrari not Chapman, I thought Lotus were early adopters but I could be wrong.

Yup.

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Yesterday I thought I'd get in quick and modify my 110 to the new look before anyone else.  So I've taped a printout of my landy to the centre of the dash.

So far it's working pretty well and gives a visual representation of the vehicle dynamics.

If I'm driving on a rough road it shakes up and down. At night it went dark, and this morning it was nice and damp. It even showed the hvac was working correctly by fluttering slightly when I put the heater on full. Development cost 5p, will still be working in 10 years 🙂

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15 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I thought people wanted the Defender to be a proper 4x4, last I looked aside from the G-Wagen none of those guys make proper 4x4's they all make soft-roaders?

Also, I thought the quote about aerodynamics was by Enzo Ferrari not Chapman, I thought Lotus were early adopters but I could be wrong.

People do want it to be a proper 4x4.  But that is clearly not what they are building and because of that they are not going to win away any sales from the Land cruiser, Patrol and Wrangler buyers.  They clearly have no concept of what the buyers in that marketplace want in a vehicle.

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1 hour ago, Red90 said:

People do want it to be a proper 4x4.  But that is clearly not what they are building and because of that they are not going to win away any sales from the Land cruiser, Patrol and Wrangler buyers.  They clearly have no concept of what the buyers in that marketplace want in a vehicle.

And it will sell in great numbers regardless of not meeting the buyers in whatever marketplace....

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Great numbers to who?  I'm sure they will claw back some of the lost market and lost sales they have seen in the last couple of years, but I can't see it doing any more for than than that.

They had the opportunity to dig into completely untouched markets that would have made a huge impact on the brand sales, but they are missing out on that.

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Just now, Red90 said:

Great numbers to who?  I'm sure they will claw back some of the lost market and lost sales they have seen in the last couple of years, but I can't see it doing any more for than than that.

They had the opportunity to dig into completely untouched markets that would have made a huge impact on the brand sales, but they are missing out on that.

You may be right, but they may just be looking to cream off the top of the SUV market for great tarmac vehicles... Look how long the waiting list got got the Evoke... Over 6 months at some points...

Something capable off-road in farmer spec isn't going to make them money.... They all run around on quads or in buggies these days...

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20 minutes ago, V8 Freak said:

You may be right, but they may just be looking to cream off the top of the SUV market for great tarmac vehicles... Look how long the waiting list got got the Evoke... Over 6 months at some points...

Something capable off-road in farmer spec isn't going to make them money.... They all run around on quads or in buggies these days...

The problem with the first point is their reliability ratings are horrible, right or wrong and the people spending that sort of money have been put off the whole brands.

To the second part, you are limiting your view to farmers and the UK.  That is not what 4x4s sell to these days.  Jeep sells over 200000 Wranglers per year in the US alone.  None of that is to farmers.  It is selling a lifestyle to people that do not want to be like everyone else.  99% of these people never go of road.  But, if they want, they can throw on 35s with no mods, drop to 8 psi and tackle the hardest trails with no concerns and little chance of body damage.  In the markets that have real overland use, everyone uses Landcruisers and Patrols.  They are simple, they are rugged and they can be modified easily to suit the needs.  This new Defender will be very complex and expensive and difficult to modify so will not break into that market.

The problem with a lot of people posting here is they run around with brand blinders on.  They have not used all for the competition in anger.  And they limit their view to a little island in the Atlantic.  Get out in the world and see how people use these vehicles.  Wheel with them, travel with them, see what is important to their buying decisions.

 

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22 minutes ago, Red90 said:

The problem with the first point is their reliability ratings are horrible

They've never been great though (the Jap stuff has been "better" pretty much since they started making it), and yet people are still buying £100k Rage Rovers and 40k+ Evoques as fast as LR can make them, so what exactly do you expect them to do? Throw a load of money into improving something that customers demonstrably don't care about?

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3 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

They've never been great though (the Jap stuff has been "better" pretty much since they started making it), and yet people are still buying £100k Rage Rovers and 40k+ Evoques as fast as LR can make them, so what exactly do you expect them to do? Throw a load of money into improving something that customers demonstrably don't care about?

They do care about it though.  I know a lot of owners of newer Land Rovers that are abandoning the brand solely due to the number of problems that they have had.  I'm not sure what you think of their sales numbers, but their sales numbers have drop dramatically over the last two years.  Reliability and making cars that look the same as everything else on the market.

In any case, this thread is on the Defender replacement.  My point is that if they really want to make money (they are losing hand over fist right now) then that vehicle "could" have been something different and could have been one to allow them to get back into markets that they lost a long time ago.  Making another vehicle that aims for the same markets they are already in is not a way to make a serious change in their profits.

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18 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Also, I thought the quote about aerodynamics was by Enzo Ferrari not Chapman, I thought Lotus were early adopters but I could be wrong.

Indeed, Chapman never used big, powerfull engines but was on the forefront of aerodynamics in F1, for example the the type 78 and 79 ground effect cars.

Filip

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Posted (edited)

Yes, mea culpa - it was indeed Ferrari who commented about the aerodynamics. 

 

Chapman was better known for telling his designers - when they presented him with their latest creation - to "now add lightness".

 

Lightness is one of the reasons I'm hoping the new Defender will make plentiful use of alloy- and composite-construction rather than the old heavy welded steel-chassis of yesteryear.

Edited by Tanuki

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Posted (edited)

It will be like the rest of the modern vehicle fleet. So long as it gets through the first 3 years of ownership with minimal servicing and cost to the owner, Land Rover will not care. It will be a completely disposable vehicle with a life expectancy of about 10 years before it becomes uneconomical to repair it.

Think about it, how many L322 range rovers do you see? Same with Disco 2 and 3, they are becoming decreasingly visible on the road

Edited by neil110

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