Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[paime]

2 minutes ago, Snagger said:

I still maintain that this is no successor to the Defender, in market, role, character, adaptability or dependability (slightly different from reliability).  Time will tell if it’s capable as a drive and reliable, but it is clearly not suitable for works, emergency services, military or expedition type use, and is thus unfit for the name.  It’s just a slightly beefier D5 it’s body kit for the rich hipster, but guess what?  They’ll want electric vehicles, so this’ll be another nail in LR’s coffin, with more brand dilution and model confusion, competing for sales with other LR products instead of other brands.

Essentially this 

[Snagger]

You have to ask what goes through their heads, too.  After the DC100 was met with so much disdain, what did they build?  Proof of McGovern’s arrogance and how fickle or easily bought the media are (they panned the DC100 but are lapping this up).

[Bowie69]

59 minutes ago, paime said:

I have no issues with the new Defender being used for the school run but it's not a patch on the old Defender and doesn't even sit in the same bracket as it imho

You must consider that it is possible that that particular 'bracket' no longer exists, or exists in such a miniscule way that it is not a viable business opportunity.

[Anderzander]

2 hours ago, Snagger said:

You have to ask what goes through their heads, too.  After the DC100 was met with so much disdain, what did they build?  Proof of McGovern’s arrogance and how fickle or easily bought the media are (they panned the DC100 but are lapping this up).

That was my thinking  just before 🤔  I wasn’t sure if I was the only one who thought  they’d basically put it into production.

[Tanuki]

2 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

You must consider that it is possible that that particular 'bracket' no longer exists, or exists in such a miniscule way that it is not a viable business opportunity.

I see the historic Defender marketspace as having split two (or three) ways in this century.

1] Off-road farmer/estate-vehicles like the Deere Gator and Kawasaki Mule. Or even the Dacia Stepway 4x4!  Ideal for dragging bales out to your flock on the hill or taking feed to the pheasants on your shoot but you wouldn't want to do a 300-mile motorway journey in one.

2] The 'Utility' pickup-market (where the old truck-cab, pickup and HCPU Defenders lived) - now occupied by the VW Amarok, Fiat Fullback, Toyota Hilux, Ford Ranger, Mitsubishi L200 and in some cases the 'microtrucks' like the Mitsubishi Fuso. My local forestry-people have released their 130 HCPU Defender and replaced it with a Fuso.

3] Middle-class multipurpose vehicles: Mitsubishi PHEV, Toyota Landcruiser or RAV4 and the assortment of Mercedes/BMW/Audi equivalents. For people who can't quite afford a Range-Rover, Mercedes G-Wagen or a Lexus RX.

I'd see "Defender 3.0" straddling these last two classes - if it could combine the ruggedness of the second class [and be tax-efficient as a commercial vehicle] with the upmarket features and image of the third class, yes I'd go for it.

Bubbling-under, Mr. Ineos and his "Projekt Grenadier" seems to fit in between my first and second categories. I don't see it as being a big seller in the 'sophisticated' UK/EU/US markets, who have rightfully come to expect a reasonable degree of creature-comforts and features! OK it may sell in the third-world where people can accept a car with no satnav or air-conditioning, but that sector's been dead in the first-world since the turn of this millennium.

 

[Gazzar]

14 minutes ago, Tanuki said:

I see the historic Defender marketspace as having split two (or three) ways in this century.

1] Off-road farmer/estate-vehicles like the Deere Gator and Kawasaki Mule. Or even the Dacia Stepway 4x4!  Ideal for dragging bales out to your flock on the hill or taking feed to the pheasants on your shoot but you wouldn't want to do a 300-mile motorway journey in one.

2] The 'Utility' pickup-market (where the old truck-cab, pickup and HCPU Defenders lived) - now occupied by the VW Amarok, Fiat Fullback, Toyota Hilux, Ford Ranger, Mitsubishi L200 and in some cases the 'microtrucks' like the Mitsubishi Fuso. My local forestry-people have released their 130 HCPU Defender and replaced it with a Fuso.

3] Middle-class multipurpose vehicles: Mitsubishi PHEV, Toyota Landcruiser or RAV4 and the assortment of Mercedes/BMW/Audi equivalents. For people who can't quite afford a Range-Rover, Mercedes G-Wagen or a Lexus RX.

I'd see "Defender 3.0" straddling these last two classes - if it could combine the ruggedness of the second class [and be tax-efficient as a commercial vehicle] with the upmarket features and image of the third class, yes I'd go for it.

Bubbling-under, Mr. Ineos and his "Projekt Grenadier" seems to fit in between my first and second categories. I don't see it as being a big seller in the 'sophisticated' UK/EU/US markets, who have rightfully come to expect a reasonable degree of creature-comforts and features! OK it may sell in the third-world where people can accept a car with no satnav or air-conditioning, but that sector's been dead in the first-world since the turn of this millennium.

 

100%

[deep]

9 hours ago, Anderzander said:

It looks a lot like the DC100 to me ? 

And most other people!  The irony is that the DC100 was probably a more appealing design, at least than the James Bond version (see my post a few pages back comparing it to the photo of the bonnetless green one) but Land Rover purists were aghast that anyone should have considered it a Defender replacement.  Oh dear.  The DC100 would have done well in the adventure market segment that the luxury/pseudo luxury current models completely miss.  As a model in its own right, it might have been quite cool.

I note people saying the new Defender is more like what the Disco 5 should have been.  In fact, it pushes back to the original Discovery, in that it is fairly rugged, not overly pretentious and very functional.  The people who were drawn to that concept back in 1989 are very likely the people who will like what we have seen of the alleged Defender.

That leaves two jobs for JLR to do.  Sack or shoot everyone who pushed the truly hideous Disco 5 into production; and make a real Defender version of the new Defender, with a functional front end and utilitarian body styles.  Shouldn't be too hard

[BogMonster]

11 hours ago, Nonimouse said:

I quite like it.  My big concern is that it will mirror the idiotic issue with the D5, namely the tapered boot, chronically uncomfortable second row seats and finally, the awe inspiring unreliability (one of our motors is on it's fourth Turbo in less than 10k) 

Nice to see some features carried over from the early 2.7L Discovery 3 then

[Naks]

first official photo of the new Defender:

 

from https://media.landrover.com/news/2019/08/new-land-rover-defender-expedition-001-centre-earth-its-world-premiere-frankfurt-motor

• Global debut: New Land Rover Defender will make its world premiere at the Frankfurt Motor Show, at 09:00 BST (10:00 CEST) on Tuesday 10 September
• First glimpse: New Defender tackles remote Valley of the Castles, Kazakhstan, on its first expedition en route to Frankfurt, Germany
• Tested to extremes: Global development programme saw new Defender endure temperatures as low as -40 celsius and altitudes as high as 10,000ft
• Livestream: Watch the reveal of new Defender from 08:50 BST / 09:50 CEST on Land Rover’s YouTube and Facebook pages
• Open book: Order books for the unstoppable 4x4 will open at the world debut

Edited August 29, 2019 by Naks

[FridgeFreezer]

19 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

You must consider that it is possible that that particular 'bracket' no longer exists, or exists in such a miniscule way that it is not a viable business opportunity.

Oh so much this!

The original Series was designed as a cheap cross between a car and a tractor but I don't see anyone bemoaning the lack of power take-off equipment in the last 30 years As Tanuki says, farmers are using cheap simple quads to bimble around farms or they're using pickups or just tipper vans for a lot of stuff - because the world has changed and they're the best tools for the job now. Grumble all you like but I don't think anyone's going to plough a field with a Defender these days even if they supplied them with a 3-point linkage from the factory

Builders are driving 30-40k VW Transporters with leather & aircon & tinted windows but if LR dare to make a vehicle with a decent interior it's far too fancy - when Ford Transits are available with leccy windows I think we can probably agree it's not outrageous extravagance for a Defender to have them too.

Every other "competitor" vehicle cited here has as much or more equipment fitted - be it foreign 4x4's or pickups, vans, even tractors & unimogs have air con & comfy seats & enough electronics to get you to the moon. Look at American pickups, supposedly rutfy-tufty all-action and yet they've got powered tailgates for your feeble arms, electric side-steps, heated cup-holders, acres of fake chrome and plastic panels, and half the time they've got indy front ends and leaf sprung arses

[Ed Poore]

And I think no Defender or road going vehicle is going to have enough clearance for the tyres that are fitted to the average tractor around here. Met half a dozen contractors on the road a few days ago whilst everyone was rapidly trying to get the silage done - each tractor's front tyres were half way up my Defenders windscreen...

[Eightpot]

So what are we supposed to be calling this then anyway? 🤔

They're calling it Defender, plus keeping 90, 110, 130.

Do we call it a new Defender for ever, does the Defender sub forum change to Old Defender, or is the new one a  Series 2 or are we calling proper ones Defender classics? 

🤯

 

[Gazzar]

35 minutes ago, Eightpot said:

So what are we supposed to be calling this then anyway? 🤔

They're calling it Defender, plus keeping 90, 110, 130.

Do we call it a new Defender for ever, does the Defender sub forum change to Old Defender, or is the new one a  Series 2 or are we calling proper ones Defender classics? 

🤯

 

That's a good question. How about the Slovakian defender and the Solihull defender? 

[Bowie69]

Well, we have the range rover forum, which has all the variants, so suggest you beardies get used to it 😛

[Jamie_grieve]

55 minutes ago, Eightpot said:

So what are we supposed to be calling this then anyway? 🤔

They're calling it Defender, plus keeping 90, 110, 130.

Do we call it a new Defender for ever, does the Defender sub forum change to Old Defender, or is the new one a  Series 2 or are we calling proper ones Defender classics? 

🤯

 

I raised the same question a few pages ago too. I think calling them 100's after the 102" wheelbase for the short ones and 120 for the longer ones after the 119" wheelbase kinda works and we'll address the 130 issue when it gets launched 

[Tanuki]

What about calling them Defender3.0 ??

Defender 1.0 - Original versions with petrol engines or mechanical-injection Diesels (TD, 200/300TDi)
Defender 2.0 - Those with electronic engine-management/controls (TD5/TDCi)
Defender 3.0 - These new ones.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Tanuki

[Ex Member]

49 minutes ago, Tanuki said:

What about calling them Defender3.0 ??

Defender 1.0 - Original versions with petrol engines or mechanical-injection Diesels (TD, 200/300TDi)
Defender 2.0 - Those with electronic engine-management/controls (TD5/TDCi)
Defender 3.0 - These new ones.

Because there is nothing connecting the old with the new.  Nothing, nada, zip, other than they are made by a company with the same name.

[Mo Murphy]

What about not calling it a Defender because it's not one ...

And let the beardless children get used to it

Mo 😆

[Anderzander]

If you were being generous, you might say that the huge gap between this Defender and the last one that rolled off the production line was simply due to years upon years of underinvestment - and that if they had continued to develop the Defender alongside the discovery, after the discovery one and perhaps discovery two, then it might look a lot like it does here ?

Arguably - it’s just catching up.

[Snagger]

10 hours ago, Naks said:

 

• Tested to extremes: Global development programme saw new Defender endure temperatures as low as -40 celsius and altitudes as high as 10,000ft

My 109 drove up the Sommelier Glacier, 10,500’, without any trouble at all. Lots of vehicles in northern Scandinavia, Canada and Russia cope with those temperatures, some very cheap and simple. So what does that say about their testing?

[reb78]

1 hour ago, Mo Murphy said:

What about not calling it a Defender because it's not one ...

And let the beardless children get used to it

Mo 😆

I quite agree. 

I actually quite like the look of the thing but not as a Defender. Said it before, but they should have let the Defender die with some dignity. This should have been the Discovery development as others have already said.

[Bowie69]

2 hours ago, Tanuki said:

What about calling them Defender3.0 ??

Defender 1.0 - Original versions with petrol engines or mechanical-injection Diesels (TD, 200/300TDi)
Defender 2.0 - Those with electronic engine-management/controls (TD5/TDCi)
Defender 3.0 - These new ones.

Errr, given the Defender badge only appeared once the TDI engine variants arrived, I would have to argue that this is just a Defender 2.0!

 

[deep]

12 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Errr, given the Defender badge only appeared once the TDI engine variants arrived, I would have to argue that this is just a Defender 2.0!

 

And the 1983-9 110s, 90s and 130s would then be Defender -1.0?

[Mo Murphy]

10 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Errr, given the Defender badge only appeared once the TDI engine variants arrived, I would have to argue that this is just a Defender 2.0!

 

True, they were 90, 110 and 130 before that ...

Oh, they're calling them that too ! 

Mo

 

 

[Mo Murphy]

The Defriender, tada ! 😆

Mo