Anderzander Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 What I think the Evo article misses is that it’s not just modernisation - it’s brand realignment. They have built a Range Rover Defender. They have compressed almost all of their products into the luxury half of the brand - because that is where the greater profit lies. That’s why we have seen the Range Rover models multiply and I would imagine that’s why the freelander went - or morphed into the Evoque. Gerry McGovern said one of the first things he changed was to have engineering report to design - rather than the other way. He flipped the function over form to form over function, which has undone the series and Defender DNA. For me that’s the shift that makes the new model feel like an ending. They’ve not just modernised - they’ve rebuilt their business model. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 ^^ exactly. A lot of people are miffed because a new Defender was promised and excitedly looked forward to - this isn't a new Defender. If they called it a Discovery Extreme or something no-one would be moaning. Instead of a notoriously simple long lived multi-purpose legend replacement, they made a boutique lifestyle version of a Range Rover, which I imagine, if it's anything like its stablemates, will depreciate at the same rate as the prohibitively expensive faults start to show across the highly complex drivetrain and electrical system and get binned before its 15 years old. It may be good business for LR, but only if these things don't depreciate like a falling rock - and based on the number of modern LR products I see in the workshop, some with terminal ailments that LR like to distance themselves from, there's no way I'd sink my cash into something like this unless it was a company car. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanuki Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 6 hours ago, Anderzander said: What I think the Evo article misses is that it’s not just modernisation - it’s brand realignment. They have built a Range Rover Defender. They have compressed almost all of their products into the luxury half of the brand - because that is where the greater profit lies. I don't see it as brand-realignment, more an honest recognition of market-realignment. "Normal" car-buyers today expect certain levels of functionality: it doesn't leak, it has air-conditioning/reversing-cameras/airbags/roll-over-protection/side-impact-bars/ABS/traction-control along with a decent radio/satnav/phone-integration. Infinitely-adjustable, comfortable seats, electrically-heated-windscreen-defrost and electric mirrors? Sure! It seems to me that a lot of the naysayers here are the sort of types who would have said in times-past "You really don't *need* a TV/fridge/washing-machine/dishwasher/central-heating/indoor-plumbing/electric-lighting in your house! Having one bath a week in a tub in front of a coal-fire in the living-room is surely enough? And those crazy antibiotics? Surely you should just die of tuberculosis/pleurisy/syphilis like my ancestors did?" I for one rejoice in progress, whether it applies to cars, houses or medicine. OK, my 'Progress-from-the-Defender' path is to follow the Zen-of-Toyota... but TBH it's crazy to denigrate JLR for including in their new Defender the sorts of things we've come to expect as part of a basic car. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 8 minutes ago, Tanuki said: .. but TBH it's crazy to denigrate JLR for including in their new Defender the sorts of things we've come to expect as part of a basic car. Basic cars don’t cost £100k 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 That's the dilemma: the defender evolved from a basic adaptable farm truck into a urban fashion statement. JLR designed this vehicle for where the profit was, and that's not on the farm. The agri/utility sector isn't where they are going, and they don't pretend otherwise. It's a Chelsea tractor, through and through. Fair enough. Shame, but that's the way it is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanuki Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Anderzander said: Basic cars don’t cost £100k Neither does the "New Defender" ! All the features I mentioned are standard in a £25K (or, rather, £250-a-month on a 3-year PCP) car these days. In the 21st century I don't want to buy the automotive equivalent of a house with no double-glazing, no central-heating and an outside toilet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 52 minutes ago, Tanuki said: Neither does the "New Defender" ! All the features I mentioned are standard in a £25K (or, rather, £250-a-month on a 3-year PCP) car these days. In the 21st century I don't want to buy the automotive equivalent of a house with no double-glazing, no central-heating and an outside toilet. Reversing cameras aside, even a £15k car - and you expect at least rear parking sensors on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 It can cost more than £100k - the base model with a tow bar is just under £50k - the top model is over £100k. You’ve misread my message though if you think I’m averse to the modernised aids and comfort that come on a basic modern car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotts90 Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 The G wagen also evolved from humble beginnings and is now one of Mercs most expensive models...starting price of £95k OTR. If anything it’s the closest in terms of military and utility use within its past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 7 minutes ago, Scotts90 said: The G wagen also evolved from humble beginnings and is now one of Mercs most expensive models...starting price of £95k OTR. If anything it’s the closest in terms of military and utility use within its past. Yes - I like those, though some can be a bit garish 😊 But I love the engineering on them and if you read about the major redesign they had in 2016 they went to enormous lengths to keep it a clear successor. Keeping indicators on top of the wings, the flat front windscreen, etc etc. Didn’t they say they even engineered it so the doors shut with the same feel ? I was told that Land Rover didn’t go that route as they are a smaller company than Mercedes and can’t afford to produce a ‘halo’ product - with high production costs and low sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deep Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 23 hours ago, Ed Poore said: That's clearly not a diesel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shackleton Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 (edited) Couldn't see this one posted going back through the discussion. Catchpole is easy to listen to, no hype, and he does his reading up. Don't think I'll ever get over the rake of the windscreen. Edited September 12, 2019 by Shackleton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 On 8/28/2019 at 11:16 AM, Ed Poore said: Holiday? A what? I don't understand that word! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 (edited) This brochure might be of interest if the upload works..... Land-Rover-Defender-1L6632010000BGBEN01P2.pdf Edited September 13, 2019 by reb78 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 12 hours ago, Scotts90 said: The G wagen also evolved from humble beginnings and is now one of Mercs most expensive models...starting price of £95k OTR. If anything it’s the closest in terms of military and utility use within its past. Both the G-Wagen and Jeep Wrangler have stayed close to their roots, especially the G-Wagen, and they are ubiquitous around these parts as well as the US and common enough in Europe. Both show how it was entirely possible to successfully update the Defender without abandoning the character and function of the original and alienating the enthusiasts that allowed LR marketing to claim such an extraordinary number of old vehicles are still in use. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klivins Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 After watching all the fuss in the cyberspace... I just cant grasp why JLR made yet another 'Chelsea tractor'? They already have plenty of those. They saw the market there - yes, but surely the market also is there for whatever utility companies and farmers use these days - pickups! If they had made Defender a cross of pickup and 4x4, something in size between Suzuki Jimny and Jeep? They had to build new factory, they claim to have made the defender from scratch. They could have made it differently, yet they did not. I have still little hope fotr their commercial lineup, but most probably thats going to be too gizmoed as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic-al Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 I think the jeep is affordable with a reasonable level of tech and it's still possible to replace bumpers, sills etc with more robust ones if required. The g wagon might still have the original at heart but look at the product range, it's a 5 litre v8 with a gaudy body kit and low profile tyres then diff locks in all axles. You physically cant get it to a place where you need the difflock without ripping the trim off and ruining a carpet which is better suited to a tarts boudoir. It's become the ultimate Chelsea wives tractor. People keep sayings it's not what farmers want as it's too high tech. Has anyone been in a modern tractor, they're a long way from straddling the gearbox and winding a handle behind you for the linkage. However the farmers seem to want a cheap vehicle for running around in, queue the range of pickups available, and a range rover type for when they go out on a shoot etc. I dont think this fits either of those roles. I would drive the new defender due to the seat options and side opening rear door as much as anything. It's a more capable nissan xtrail, or a freelander 3 and as such it should be £35k - £50k. £90k is a joke. However for the price I would rather have a land cruiser. I hope it sells though as I want jlr to continue operating factories and design in the uk. They just need bear grills and one of the many famous Essex girls (you know the sort, the ones that are famous for the sake of being famous not for any actual axhievement) to endorse it and it will be away. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 4 hours ago, Snagger said: Both the G-Wagen and Jeep Wrangler have stayed close to their roots, especially the G-Wagen, and they are ubiquitous around these parts as well as the US and common enough in Europe. Both show how it was entirely possible to successfully update the Defender without abandoning the character and function of the original and alienating the enthusiasts that allowed LR marketing to claim such an extraordinary number of old vehicles are still in use. Agree with you there. At the launch of the Jeep you get the designer talking about how they designed the arches so that owners could fit 35” mud terrains, at Defender launch you get McGovern spouting on about verticality, durability and solid panels above the wheel arches to give solidness 🙄🙄🙄 In the US, at least, the Jeep is well priced too. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roverdrive Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 A few things come to mind. They should never have called it a Defender, because it does not have the “Swiss army knife” adaptability. I’d go along with Discovery Extreme as well. My 300tdi 110 has just gone up by £3k in value at least. I have looked everywhere in the brochure and can’t find any mention of part number LRS 8888, or Land Rover Spider. How can they expect any credibility without a spider? I still want one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 I still want a spider too 😊 Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Having seen a bit more - still ambivalent about the looks. Not terrible, but nothing special and definitely more what the Discovery 5 should have been than a new Defender. I like the look of the inside. It looks like a car that could very much fill the niche of a Range Rover Classic or later Discovery - luxurious, capable on and off road, not too ridiculously large to actually use off road - but there's very little there that says Defender to me. Will they ever be used seriously off road by the likes of us? If they're any good, yes - my first Range Rover (a well optioned '93 Vogue SE) would have been a £40k car when new (serious money then), and almost certainly pampered - but it descended through use as an equestrian hack to a laning and off-roading toy. As long as the new Defender proves sufficiently durable and repairable (main question mark for me is over the electronics - time will tell) then enthusiasts will buy and use them and the market will be there for after market support. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 The dutch prices have been announced: Defender 90: 94.300 euro. Defender 110: 101.300 euro. Defender 90 Commercial: 46.370 euro makes the UK prices seem low. Daan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad_pete Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 I heard US start point was $50,000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 I was stood looking at my D3 in the yard today. This new defender is a D3. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Been looking at the pdf link you added above, some bits I like others not very much, definitely don't like the solid panel on the LWB upper side panel, that could of been a full window which would allow much more natural light into rear of the vehicle. it's actually a 119 inch wheelbase not 110, ought to be called a 120. pretty sure it will sell well. but I won't be buying one, my trusty '89 110CSW will soldier on. been playing with the 'build' thing on LR's website. this one comes out at just over 62,500 on the road with the interior photo I now see why the panel is on the outside of the C post . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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