Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[Happyoldgit]

I think my days of buying new Land Rover vehicles has passed, it appears that you have to be one of the brown nosers in other forums to get any attention from dealers, let alone JLR themselves. Well let JR court their metrosexual weekend rock climbers, surf dudes, country park explorers and lovers of beige canvas. Sod 'em.

This new venture though, I quite like what I'm seeing. Time will tell.

[Bowie69]

~300bhp, turbo petrol or diesel 6 cylinder BMW engines? What's not to like.....

 

[Tanuki]

The proposed Ineos Grenadier looks 'interesting' but to my mind it's just too de-contented to ever be a big seller in first-world markets.

Even builders, forestry-workers, utilities-contractors, farmers etc. expect a certain basic level of creature-comforts in their vehicles these days [look at a current-production tractor: it's stuffed to the gills with techie-things like aircon, satnav, sixteen-speaker audio, realtime data-link back to the office, heated seats/steering-wheel, good soundproofing, multiple reversing cameras].

OK, it's fine having a vehicle with true "go anywhere" capability but when your crews shun it over a Sprinter or a Hilux because the Hilux/Sprinter's faster, more-comfortable and they know that for 99% of their jobs it'll do what's needed.

I see the Grenadier as probably selling *more* into the "urban look at me! I'm a hardcore off-roader" lifestyle segment! Most of such buyers will probably only use 10,000 miles of their 30,000-mile allocation and replace it with a Landcruiser when the 3-year lease is up.

[Anderzander]

What does “De-contented” mean?

 

It strikes me that folk seem to think that rejecting the new Defender is a rejection of creature comforts and modernisation. Where’s that come from?

I think a functionally focused vehicle can have creature comforts and some technology. I don’t see them as mutually exclusive. There are plenty of people out there disappointed by the LR offer who aren’t obsessed with being able to hose out a hand made box powered by a 200tdi.

I just think that the new Range Rover Defender isn’t functionally focused - it’s a luxury car with copious electronics to improve its off-road performance.

Perhaps the Granadier will have that functional focus is promises - and be built with a level or electronics aids to augment that - and I expect it will certainly be built with modern engineering standards too.

Tractors and Unimogs are modern now - but purpose is at the heart of their architecture, not luxury. I think the Grenadier won’t be a million miles from that.

 

[Tanuki]

"De-contented" - meaning stripped-of-content/features, pared to the bone, "Poverty-spec".

Term''s traditionally used in the automotive industry to describe 'low-budget' versions of cars where things found in the normal model - radio, alloys, aircon, electric-windows, cruise-control - are deleted in order to meet some particular [often tax-related] price-point.

[Gazzar]

Poverty specification.

[deep]

Years ago, I went on an epic adventure in a 1982 Range Rover.  4 speed manual, wind up windows and the only electronic bit was the ignition amplifier.  By today's standards, a very impoverished vehicle, yet very, very capable when I took it off road.  I NEVER felt like I was driving anything cheap and miserable and you couldn't have paid me to swap it for something nasty like a Hi Lux (we'd had those for years as work vehicles and it was a blessed relief when they were replaced by something vastly better).

The point is that something very functional does not have to be an unpleasant thing to drive at all.  Good soundproofing, plenty of room, comfy seats, a good ride, power steering and attention to ergonomics are things that make for a pleasant driving experience and none are necessarily excluded by having a basic, functional car.  In fact, most of the electronic gimcracks beyond that are just irritations.

[Bowie69]

Agreed.

I liked the approach to sound system - essentially they are assuming people want to use their own device, so providing ways to interface with phones etc, but not bothering putting a 'head unit' in.

[Anderzander]

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/land-rover/defender/96387/new-2020-ineos-projekt-grenadier-engines-and-specs-announced

[Bowie69]

Yep, that was the article I skimmed earlier.

[Gazzar]

That....that sounds like a decent vehicle. I do like a straight six diesel.

 

 

[BogMonster]

De-contented is fine. Give me something with power steering, electric windows, central locking and a wireless, a heater that works and preferably aircon, and I don't much care about the rest.

3.0 straight six BMW diesel or 2.0 flymo engine that's even branded as an "engine...er...um"?  Er let me think about that for .... about 0.3 seconds

The biggest risk the Gren will have is early sales, others waiting to see if it takes off or flops, and not wanting to risk getting stuck with something that goes out of production after a year or two. I hope it's a roaring success.

[Bowie69]

I'm wondering, should we have a 'Thoughts and musings on the Ineos Grenadier' thread?

Reckon it probably deserves one, and gives all something to talk about for the next two years

[hurbie]

5 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

I'm wondering, should we have a 'Thoughts and musings on the Ineos Grenadier' thread?

Reckon it probably deserves one, and gives all something to talk about for the next two years

great idea !! 

[Anderzander]

Over to you Bowie !! 

[Tanuki]

7 hours ago, BogMonster said:

The biggest risk the Gren will have is early sales, others waiting to see if it takes off or flops, and not wanting to risk getting stuck with something that goes out of production after a year or two. I hope it's a roaring success.

I hope it'll be a success too.

I wonder what they're going to do about establishing a dealer/parts-support network? This is always an issue with 'new' brands trying to enter the market - all the moreso in the commercial-vehicle world where a vehicle just can't be out-of-action while you wait for a part to arrive.

[Someone I know worked for the importer of Japanese "Hino" trucks a few decades back. They were cheap-to-buy but if one failed somewhere remote like Aberystwyth or Launceston your nearest dealer might as well have been on Mars!  You don't see many Hino trucks in the UK these days]

[deep]

22 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

Agreed.

I liked the approach to sound system - essentially they are assuming people want to use their own device, so providing ways to interface with phones etc, but not bothering putting a 'head unit' in.

I was thinking about this.  No sign of anything like a CD player (a reflection of the times) but I also can't see any obvious way of plugging anything in.  Surely they aren't expecting everyone to use faffy, unreliable bluetooth from their phones to provide audio, other than the radio?  When I think of the people I know who are old enough to actually afford something like this, not that many of them put their music collections on their phones.  Nor do they enjoy the hassle of trying to "pair" something.  Bad enough trying to make adjustments or find a new station using a touchscreen!  Hopefully, the controls on the steering column will be intuitive and effective and at least one of those USB ports will connect to the sound system.  Surely...  

Some of the rental cars I use have systems like this.  One model has a USB port that connects to the audio.  It's hidden in the armrest, for crying out loud.  With that particular car, I have to pull over to work the radio as it takes WAY too much attention.  Knobs and buttons all the way for me.

[Bowie69]

@deep

 I was on about the Grenadier

[lo-fi]

Don't worry Deep, I bet they'll supply it with one of those cassettes with the cable dangling out so you can connect your Discman

Bluetooth "just works". For anyone that can afford one of these things, it'll be a must have. I get in my car, the phone connects, it plays Spotify or iplayer where I left off. I touch literally nothing. My girlfriend, on the other hand, has an older fiat. It has a USB connection that patchily supports nothing but the phones of the day. She bought a Bluetooth adaptor, which lives in said USB port. Despite being Bluetooth (a wireless protocol, let's not forget), you have to plug the phone in to charge through the adaptor before it'll work. Its the most bonkers, irritating thing. Cables? Ain't nobody got time fo dat. Modern iPhones don't even have a 3.5mm jack any more either. Bluetooth A2DP is a single standard more broadly supported than even a cable now, so I'd expect both the new thing and Grenadier (however basic) to come with support, and I'd be willing to bet its more widely used than any cabled connection.

I like the idea of the "dumb" head unit though, pretty much just being an amp with volume control. That's pretty much all I ever want out of a car stereo! 

[Bowie69]

Ahem:

 

[Snagger]

8 hours ago, lo-fi said:

Modern iPhones don't even have a 3.5mm jack any more either.

Yep.  Because it’s cheaper to make that way, not because it’s a superior product.  iPhones are twice the price of a similar spec alternative, and they’re extremely fragile.  From an engineering and technical perspective, they’re carp, but they’re made to look pretty and the brand has become a lifestyle and wealth projection badge.  Much like another brand being discussed...

[landroversforever]

13 hours ago, lo-fi said:

Bluetooth "just works".

The trouble is it doesn’t always in my experience. Yes my phone always connects to the daily (65 plate Mini) for the hands free but it doesn’t always connect for music over the Bluetooth. I’m paired with all the work vans but they often don’t work first time. 

[geoffbeaumont]

4 hours ago, landroversforever said:

The trouble is it doesn’t always in my experience. Yes my phone always connects to the daily (65 plate Mini) for the hands free but it doesn’t always connect for music over the Bluetooth. I’m paired with all the work vans but they often don’t work first time. 

Mine neither. Very dependent on both the head unit and phone. Plus.. clearly in my early forties I'm getting old but I don't use my phone for music. It's an irritation to me that our newer car doesn't have a CD player.

[deep]

On 9/21/2019 at 7:50 AM, Bowie69 said:

@deep

 I was on about the Grenadier

Yup, that was clear.  Unfortunately, I wasn't clear that I was talking about the "Defender".  Sorry about the confusion.

[deep]

23 hours ago, lo-fi said:

Don't worry Deep, I bet they'll supply it with one of those cassettes with the cable dangling out so you can connect your Discman

Bluetooth "just works". For anyone that can afford one of these things, it'll be a must have. I get in my car, the phone connects, it plays Spotify or iplayer where I left off. I touch literally nothing. My girlfriend, on the other hand, has an older fiat. It has a USB connection that patchily supports nothing but the phones of the day. She bought a Bluetooth adaptor, which lives in said USB port. Despite being Bluetooth (a wireless protocol, let's not forget), you have to plug the phone in to charge through the adaptor before it'll work. Its the most bonkers, irritating thing. Cables? Ain't nobody got time fo dat. Modern iPhones don't even have a 3.5mm jack any more either. Bluetooth A2DP is a single standard more broadly supported than even a cable now, so I'd expect both the new thing and Grenadier (however basic) to come with support, and I'd be willing to bet its more widely used than any cabled connection.

I like the idea of the "dumb" head unit though, pretty much just being an amp with volume control. That's pretty much all I ever want out of a car stereo! 

Couple of ironies: "lo-fi" pushing high-tech; and I actually have one of those cassette with cable gadgets in my 110!  The very flashy stereo I first put in it died early, so I grabbed an older one out of the cupboard and it's chugged along since, with its terrible sound and outdated cassettes still working fine.  Those cassettes go back nearly half a century, a challenge to bluetooth!

Bluetooth "just works"??  Um, only when the wind is coming from the right corner and the moon is waxing.  The bluetooth keyboard and trackpad on my Mac just work.  The bluetooth keyboard on my (work's) Surface Pro sometimes works.  The first UE Boom on my iPhone usually just works but the second, paired one goes its own way.  The bluetooth earphones I occasionally use on my iPhone sometimes just work but often need to be completely re-paired.  I set my iPhone to communicate with my Mum's Holden Barina when she bought it.  Everything said it had paired  but nothing actually worked.  When I get a rental car for a few days, it isn't worth the hassle of trying to pair via bluetooth.  I could go on.

On the other hand, I stopped the iPhone upgrade fiasco at the 6S, mainly BECAUSE the newer ones don't have a headphone jack (but also because the iPhone "just works" and there is no need to replace it).  It's fantastic, I can plug it into both my home stereos and into my (work's) car stereo .....AND into the cassette cable thingy in my Land Rover, if I want to.  All of which I can do also with my iPod but not with my Discman, because it's broken.  Of course, my plug-in headphones connect instantly and utterly reliably with both phone and iPod and just work - and sound fantastic.

Take all that together and it's about a kazillion times easier just to plug a cable into my phone (which I do anyway to keep the charge up, especially if I will be relying on it all day in the hills) than to muck around and hope with trendy and annoying wireless technology.

Nice to get that off my chest.