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Jamie_grieve

Thoughts and musings on the new defender

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How soon will we get one to buy? It's been the same concept for years!

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That reminds me of my childhood, I had the Lego technic chassis, I think it's still around somewhere.

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Thanks Ralph for posting.

The first two pics are the rear axle and what appears to be a trans axle

3 is the front axle

4 is the front ? of the rear axle. Note the two prop shafts

5 is the front axle

 

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On 9/29/2019 at 7:52 PM, deep said:

Apart from getting one or two facts wrong, I think he nailed it.  His conclusion nails why there is so much division over this thing, especially the comparison with the iMac Pro!  

My summary: Land Rover made a much better car but lots of people actually wanted a better truck...

I disagree with the idea that the large rims are a byproduct of the towing limit. I'd suggest it's a byproduct of maintaining a realistic duty cycle of the traction control in the absence of locking diffs. The rear diff is just a hydraulic clutch pack and not actually a locker. I wonder how long they'll last? No front locker at all was a surprise and a disappointment and kinda puts it in a field of 'also rans', like it'll never be a 'real' off roader without them regardless of the capabilities of it. How many G wagon or Jeep Rubicon owners actually use them for anything other than pub top trumps?

Not having the option of locking diffs is likely to do with the small half shafts used. I have trouble understanding why they couldn't have invested  some of the funds allocated to this project to a better  drivetrain which, despite the 'durable" hype doesn't seem to actually have any particularly  durable components. I get the whole marketing thing and it isn't a utility etc but it's like buying a 100m waterproof watch that's only splash proof. The knock on effects of the large rims unsuitable for proper off road tyres and the resulting lack of capability isn't going to help the image or reputation of the new car.

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8 hours ago, Jamie_grieve said:

I disagree with the idea that the large rims are a byproduct of the towing limit. I'd suggest it's a byproduct of maintaining a realistic duty cycle of the traction control in the absence of locking diffs. The rear diff is just a hydraulic clutch pack and not actually a locker. I wonder how long they'll last? No front locker at all was a surprise and a disappointment and kinda puts it in a field of 'also rans', like it'll never be a 'real' off roader without them regardless of the capabilities of it. How many G wagon or Jeep Rubicon owners actually use them for anything other than pub top trumps?

Not having the option of locking diffs is likely to do with the small half shafts used. I have trouble understanding why they couldn't have invested  some of the funds allocated to this project to a better  drivetrain which, despite the 'durable" hype doesn't seem to actually have any particularly  durable components. I get the whole marketing thing and it isn't a utility etc but it's like buying a 100m waterproof watch that's only splash proof. The knock on effects of the large rims unsuitable for proper off road tyres and the resulting lack of capability isn't going to help the image or reputation of the new car.

The larger rims are far more likely to be related to trying to keep the sprung/unsprung ratio lower, which is all to do with having a better ride and handling on road (though that will also improve high speed ride and control off-road, of course).

The minimalism in terms of locking diffs just reflects their utter confidence in the electronic traction control system.  To a certain degree, they're right, as locked diffs can be utter pigs when traction is uneven.  Personally, I'd still prefer to have air lockers, or even ATBs, on my 110 than any kind of computer controlled system.  However, that rubs at the heart of the problem a lot of us have with the new generation of Land Rovers - they're making cars for the ignorant/inexperienced/downright lazy, not for the competent and capable drivers who want to be in charge.  Turns out that the ignorant/inexperienced/downright lazy are the folk who are more willing to take out massive loans and actually buy a new car!  You can't blame them.

Actually, I would be amazed if well-maintained and fully working* new Defenders won't run rings around most old school off-roaders in many, many situations.

*fully working? For how long???

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3 hours ago, deep said:

Actually, I would be amazed if well-maintained and fully working* new Defenders won't run rings around most old school off-roaders in many, many situations.

*fully working? For how long???

I think you nailed it there. 

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What do you think the biggest tyre size you can fit on it will be? 

I’ve read 31” and 33” 

There are some chunky MT’s available on the larger wheel sizes. Km3’s come in 285/70/18 - which is a little over 33” and not a bad size tyre.

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You know - the formula for the new Defender is probably really quite simple:

Quote

 

How many people drive on road to off road?  Probably 99% on road.

Where is the greatest profit? Luxury cars - that’s why we’ve shifted the whole brand towards Range Rover. 

So let’s build a luxury car - but trade on the image that this is ‘no shopping-run queen’ for all the wannabe adventurers and pseudo hardcore road kings, and if we sell(?) a few that are actually used off road we can trade against that.

 

The only anomaly to that seems to be the commercial model that’s coming ? 

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2 more from mmgemini on his lego new defender build, these are gearbox parts

IMG-20191006-WA0000.jpg

IMG-20191006-WA0001.jpg

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look at what arrived today :)

 

8sENY1hk0wDc2pD237zFN5d3q2WSvZhBZMD0MZkiA4-605elukPbCxOdzmhDWgJ2jjO5Mb-Dksz781T6zW-4acugLvfT-03CKMsKIsos15aTskQMrmdu3Tx5TaBl8hFdOVTqBSMov-NyZ7kVUEqLkI7GljODtQCJTUr-Tan_FfQMWbaiUHXdyNnWtI4ID1CUHmY6ft6PJOZTq8U_L8loMz1VWvI73cr1YKU-sNFF4x61XWpzfHW2TvYJ3RAT0X4l7DI2aZZC97fUQY8lV6DmbV-7KUSCZPgCBTjtFiSmTLqguYo7U7m7ESoAwmEsZu17g0-JLItIWja5Lmt693rbqmv5UjTIerkUI79ZySDfxbAb_Wu5nuwp-frvL3yHpxxZJsGP-1WnoDa-K6LHpoN8UTzg6HC21eBjnWEtFKgrVky8G4x20tch03pcb7iM69YKtiwVkwsy2JC_kOhmrM68o3KZnCaIdf64rLgFfABi73wr9eH5d9SaTv29mlb6_Ycy4UxaouA1r5uIack5iLvKogKSkrwuAdAkx6EEgaSAivZMMIYm0Pme3vgQz7l1dYvbJEbogq-Zug4cML89QGMiQauFcfxJI-4gPXmYPGCi4EKMX4Y7PJks2PPw60BzUsaAWOftoTrRyB3gu8YfX9LY2Xc4KWZ43uKzMwqTonoboZAebRMCOUmYT6E=w1734-h975-no

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More from mmgemini 

The redball on right is the winch brake

 

 

IMG-20191006-WA0003.jpg

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!st pick is overall of chassis

2nd pic is 6 cyl enging

3rd pic is winch, The black gearwheel is the drive and thr red ball is the brake lever

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19 hours ago, deep said:

The larger rims are far more likely to be related to trying to keep the sprung/unsprung ratio lower, which is all to do with having a better ride and handling on road (though that will also improve high speed ride and control off-road, of course).

It may also be to do with present- and future tyre-availability.

Tyres are included in the emissions-profiling of vehicles these days (indeed there was a threat a few years back that the CO2-rating of some vehicles, and hence their annual tax-rates, would only be valid when the tyres-they-had-been-rated-on were fitted, and that _could_ have become part of future MoT-style regular testing).

Tyre speed-rating is also an issue in certain markets (Guten Abend, Deutschland?) - I'd be hoping that Defender 3.0 would have a top-speed over 117MPH so that means it needs "VR" rated rubber, which doesn't generally come in the knobblier-profiles.

 

Also, big rims let you fit bigger brakes!  I consider the likes of my 90TD5 to be woefully underbraked considering its weight/speed  [front discs/pads have always been an 18,000-mile/18-month replacement item]

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On 10/6/2019 at 4:26 PM, Tanuki said:

Tyre speed-rating is also an issue in certain markets (Guten Abend, Deutschland?) - I'd be hoping that Defender 3.0 would have a top-speed over 117MPH so that means it needs "VR" rated rubber, which doesn't generally come in the knobblier-profiles.

 

Without losing sight of the fact that we're discussing the defender replacement, not the discovery replacement, which user group requires a top speed in excess of 90mph let alone 117mph in a utility vehicle (even an urban utility vehicle)? 
 

On 10/6/2019 at 4:26 PM, Tanuki said:

It may also be to do with present- and future tyre-availability.

The current availability of 18"-22" off road tyres in 90% of the world is zero, wouldn't it have made more sense to fit tyres we can actually buy and be fit for purpose at the same time by having a measurable sidewall?

On 10/6/2019 at 4:26 PM, Tanuki said:

Also, big rims let you fit bigger brakes!  I consider the likes of my 90TD5 to be woefully underbraked considering its weight/speed  [front discs/pads have always been an 18,000-mile/18-month replacement item]

A dodge ram or any other full size pickup can tow three times what the defender can and also fit 16" rims, why couldn't the JLR engineers do likewise? If they'd wanted to push the envelope they could have fitted oil immersed brakes and actually given the defender at least one mechanical off road attribute. Most reviews of defenders compliment the brakes, aftermarket parts are the main reasons for sub-par braking performance.

I think only supplying urban oriented wheel / tyre combos in virtually impossible to find sizes contributes to alienating a huge chunk of potential customers, especially when you consider the greatly reduced tyre life on independent suspension.

I also realise that there's no point in me crying over spilled milk. The illusion of a rough tough utility vehicle only needs the illusion of rough tough tyres so 18' or even 22" is fine, especially with some sidewall tread graphics.

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Speed ratings and the like are not enforced like that in Deutschland, for example winter tyres often have lower speed ratings as the rubber is more supple and more prone to overheat.

So funnily enough, the drivers just don't go faster than the tyre is designed for.

It is quite legal, here and there, to drive on tyres with a lower speed rating than the top speed of the vehicle.

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On 10/7/2019 at 9:24 PM, Jamie_grieve said:

A dodge ram or any other full size pickup can tow three times what the defender can and also fit 16" rims, why couldn't the JLR engineers do likewise? If they'd wanted to push the envelope they could have fitted oil immersed brakes and actually given the defender at least one mechanical off road attribute. Most reviews of defenders compliment the brakes, aftermarket parts are the main reasons for sub-par braking performance.

Although someone posted a video on one of the other threads in here (the Ineos one?) of an F150 drag racing some of the other more "European" pickups (it included a Ranger - so not strictly European). One of the things they did was a head to head stopping distance competition - the (empty) F150 stopped a very considerable distance ahead of all the others. Not saying that's the whole story, but just because some vehicles have brake disks that size doesn't necessarily mean it works well...

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Yup, that video is in the Ineos thread, EU brakes are waaaaay better than yank stuff, it seems.

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8 minutes ago, geoffbeaumont said:

Although someone posted a video on one of the other threads in here (the Ineos one?) of an F150 drag racing some of the other more "European" pickups (it included a Ranger - so not strictly European). One of the things they did was a head to head stopping distance competition - the (empty) F150 stopped a very considerable distance ahead of all the others. Not saying that's the whole story, but just because some vehicles have brake disks that size doesn't necessarily mean it works well...

I suspect there was something up with the F150. And you also need to bear in mind it likely weighed more than the others too. Think they are about 2.8 tonne empty. And it was on off road tyres. The Amorok weighs about a tonne less.

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1 hour ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

I suspect there was something up with the F150. And you also need to bear in mind it likely weighed more than the others too. Think they are about 2.8 tonne empty. And it was on off road tyres. The Amorok weighs about a tonne less.

I thought that - they just picked up a knackered secondhand F150 that was available and pitted it against some brand new cars. You hardly buy a pickup for drag racing either so a weird test all in all.

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29 minutes ago, reb78 said:

I thought that - they just picked up a knackered secondhand F150 that was available and pitted it against some brand new cars. You hardly buy a pickup for drag racing either so a weird test all in all.

I thought it quite interesting overall. And the Amarok certainly shifts.

As for drag racing... ;)

 

lightning_2004_ford_102.ashx?modified=20

5.4 suprcharged V8 with 390hp. In stock trim they run 13's quarter miles.

 

Or the Syclone, which would match a same era Ferrari down the drag strip.

66438155-300-0@2x.jpg?rev=1

 

And while not so popular in the UK, in the USA heavily tuned diesels running in the 12's, 11's and even 10's is not exactly rare.

006-kenneth-ashley-black-pro-street-drag

159374749.jpg

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13 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

I thought it quite interesting overall. And the Amarok certainly shifts.

As for drag racing... ;)

 

 

 

 

 

And while not so popular in the UK, in the USA heavily tuned diesels running in the 12's, 11's and even 10's is not exactly rare.

006-kenneth-ashley-black-pro-street-drag

159374749.jpg

 

maxresdefault.jpg

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