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Jamie_grieve

Thoughts and musings on the new defender

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Land Rover sadly aren't the first people to re-hash a well established name and heritage for some cheap marketing tricks.

Remember the muscle car the Dodge Charger? Sure you do, the General Lee in the Dukes of Hazzard. With V8 engines available as big as 7.4 litres and built for performance.

Well in 1982 Dodge saw fit to re-launch the model with this fwd 2.2 litre variant..... oh dear! I bet hardly anyone remembers these.

800px-Dodge_Charger_(1538984607).jpg

 

 

Obviously this new Pretender, sorry Defender Sport looks to be a good vehicle overall. But I wonder if history will be so kind to it in years to come. When they are 20-25 years old, rusty and fully of electrical problems with it's then out of date technology. Will they be loved and coveted like a Series One, II, III or real Defender is now? I'm not so sure tbh.

Edited by Chicken Drumstick

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Chevy Impala:

 

Chevrolet_Impala_1959_(13923403830).jpg.ba51f45cfa8d38b731c374517c3dc50c.jpg

 

Chevy Impala:

Chevrolet_Impala_--_12-26-2009.thumb.jpg.b1adfea7c987b9d27f368145b2b5bf1d.jpg

Brand >>> Substance.

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Yup guys, same process, same poor result.

Still, let's hope for Edsellike success !

Mo 

 

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I'm not sure LR are being as cynical as you make out... in their day the old ones were better than a lot of cars available to the average farmer... hydraulic brakes, synchros on the gears, heater, windscreen wipers, that sort of luxury!

Also nothing attracts the same devotion as the first of something - no-one's cherishing Discoveries like they are older Range Rovers, no-one cherishes Series 3's like they do Series 1's, etc. etc. with very few exceptions.

Not sure that makes one better or worse than the other - the original minis are classics but you'd probably sooner have a modern one to go on a long journey or commute in, even if they are a tad more complicated :lol:

Modern laws (safety, environment, etc.) and modern customers (beyond a few die-hard masochists) want modern vehicles.

 

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1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I'm not sure LR are being as cynical as you make out... in their day the old ones were better than a lot of cars available to the average farmer... hydraulic brakes, synchros on the gears, heater, windscreen wipers, that sort of luxury!

Also nothing attracts the same devotion as the first of something - no-one's cherishing Discoveries like they are older Range Rovers, no-one cherishes Series 3's like they do Series 1's, etc. etc. with very few exceptions.

Not sure that makes one better or worse than the other - the original minis are classics but you'd probably sooner have a modern one to go on a long journey or commute in, even if they are a tad more complicated :lol:

Modern laws (safety, environment, etc.) and modern customers (beyond a few die-hard masochists) want modern vehicles.

 

Modern MINI’s at least in the 3 door format aren’t a million miles from the original though. The R50 (the first new MINI) was very close in many ways and had good styling traits. 

Also I’m not knocking the physical vehicle LR have announced. It looks to be everything the Discovery 5 should have been. It IS a Discovery in everything but name. But it isn’t and I doubt ever will be a Defender. Once it isn’t new and shiny I think people will look on it more with scorn and such a departure on what it should have been. Again I’m not attacking the physical vehicle. I can well see me owning one at some point. But never as a Defender/Series replacement or alternative. 

Not too mention this new model looks nothing like a Defender or Series, with which LR keep claiming it is related too. 

Edited by Chicken Drumstick
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It’s not about modern though - it’s about focus.

they could have made a very focused off reader that was modern - but they haven’t .

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I did say "Definitely worth watching if you're open-minded enough to hear Land Rover's point of view, especially towards the end" when I posted the link to that video.  Maybe that proviso was overly optimistic?  

I might be close to the most conservative person on this forum (my early 110 could only be improved if it had a Series 2 dash and a cable to stop the engine, instead of a diabolical solenoid).  I absolutely loath electric handbrakes, touchscreen interfaces in a car and autonomous anythings.  Nevertheless, even I have to admit times have changed.  The perspective of people who actually make vehicles - influenced by a bored public's hunger for new technology and pointless road performance (who actually NEEDS a 129 m.p.h. Land Rover??), critical road tests, relentless safety legislation, a critical need to make a profit and who just want to make something look different and appealing - is a thousand miles away from that of people who are content with something made in 1958 but don't want to pay the true price for making that today.

Yes, they went way too far with the gimmicks but, given those constraints, they made the best Land Rover they could (if you don't want a pick-up or flatdeck, eek).  At the end of the day, or maybe at the end of a long day's work, or a long expedition to a remote corner of the world, what it looks like matters very little and everyone will get used to it anyway, like they did with the Disco 3/4.

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1 hour ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Modern MINI’s at least in the 3 door format aren’t a million miles from the original though. 

This exactly. When I was looking around at cars back in 2015, I was looking for something pokey but also something that had character. Whilst a Golf or Audi would have been quicker or a GT86 would have been more fun on wet roundabouts, the mini just had/has something fun about it. Yes it’s a million miles from the original car but it’s still instantly recognisable as a Mini. That’s where I think the new defender has lost out mostly, it just isn’t instantly recognisable in the same way. 

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39 minutes ago, deep said:

I did say "Definitely worth watching if you're open-minded enough to hear Land Rover's point of view, especially towards the end" when I posted the link to that video.  Maybe that proviso was overly optimistic?  

I might be close to the most conservative person on this forum (my early 110 could only be improved if it had a Series 2 dash and a cable to stop the engine, instead of a diabolical solenoid).  I absolutely loath electric handbrakes, touchscreen interfaces in a car and autonomous anythings.  Nevertheless, even I have to admit times have changed.  The perspective of people who actually make vehicles - influenced by a bored public's hunger for new technology and pointless road performance (who actually NEEDS a 129 m.p.h. Land Rover??), critical road tests, relentless safety legislation, a critical need to make a profit and who just want to make something look different and appealing - is a thousand miles away from that of people who are content with something made in 1958 but don't want to pay the true price for making that today.

Yes, they went way too far with the gimmicks but, given those constraints, they made the best Land Rover they could (if you don't want a pick-up or flatdeck, eek).  At the end of the day, or maybe at the end of a long day's work, or a long expedition to a remote corner of the world, what it looks like matters very little and everyone will get used to it anyway, like they did with the Disco 3/4.

I hear what you are saying. But I think you are missing the point being made. 

Also I don’t recall anyone bemoaning the D3 when launched. It was a fantastic extension of what a Discovery model was.

And that’s the crux of it. This new Defender is just so far adrift from what the previous models since 1948 thru 2016 had been offering. 

For me it isn’t even about the gadgets or touchscreens. It about not being a utility based recreational, rough and ready off roader. I’m also amazed that Land Rover as an organisation would so freely and completely leave the utility market. Yes yes, we all know they won’t be rivalling Toyota on a world sales level. But still, for a company founded in that segment. They now have no presence at all in it. 

There really is no practical reason, other than they didn’t want too. To have offered something more inline with how the Jimmy, Wrangler or even Ford Ranger have been designed. 

 

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Jeeez 63 pages and much like similar threads in other places they just end up going around in the same old circles.

The vehicle is now a physical reality. Like it, can afford it, buy it. Don't like it, don't buy it. Can't afford it, go without.

All the what if's and maybes won't change a thing.

Simple really.

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5 minutes ago, Anderzander said:

You can’t remove a mans right to be offended !  Lol 😂 

What would you do with all the new type owners ? 

Liver, Fava beans and Chianti spring to mind ..... :rofl:

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1 hour ago, Happyoldgit said:

Liver, Fava beans and Chianti spring to mind ..... :rofl:

 

Dear Uncle H 😊

Mo 

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19 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

COMPARED TO WHERE THE SINISTER ILLUMINATI LIZARD PEOPLE DEMAND THEY GO IN ORDER TO DELIBERATELY RUIN CARS FOR EVERYONE, AS IS THEIR STATED MISSION!

 

NOW YOU KNOW THE TRUTH THIS MESSAGE WILL SELF-DESTRUCT, LIKE ALL THESE FANGLED MODERN THINGS WHAT AREN'T AS GOOD AS WHAT THEY USED TO BE, EEEEH, OOOH ME KNEES....

ooo capitals on the internet, run away run away! :lol:

 

I think the difference between a mini, fiat 500 or beetle is someone bought the originals as they wanted a cheap to run, easy to drive, economical car to get them from a to b. The new mini / fiat 500 / beetle still do that, but safer and more comfortably and with more flair than a Kia or Hyundai.

The series / defender was intended for people who needed to take a bail of straw into a field, find a stuck sheep on a hill, tow cattle to market, throw a split hydraulic hose, split tyre and tools in the back, not worry if a cow leans on it, a goat chews the trim or they 'reshape' a corner, they want to kick the mud off their wellies on the sill, use the controls without washing their hands and keep it running with twine. A niche market. The new defender is great for a surveyor, a 200 mile motorway trip and an external locker to put the muddy wellies in when they've finished before a comfortable 200 mile drive home but I think it misses the mark for the above. I think they would've been better importing something else, rebadging it a defender and selling it for £20k through their established dealer network than going to the effort of manufacturing a whole new car which is very similar to their other stuff, selling it for £85k and telling us it's the same as it was before. I like it, it looks like it's going to be a great car, but don't tell us it's the same as it was. If anyone watches the apprentice it's like the wide boy trying to sell Tommy the talking turtle. :lol:

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When all you have us a McGovern, everything looks like a Discovery...

/Mic drop 

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how difficult would it be to tray back a disco 4?

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I'm sure it would be nothing a 9'' grinder would worry about 😂

Mo

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15 hours ago, Happyoldgit said:

Jeeez 63 pages and much like similar threads in other places they just end up going around in the same old circles.

The vehicle is now a physical reality. Like it, can afford it, buy it. Don't like it, don't buy it. Can't afford it, go without.

All the what if's and maybes won't change a thing.

Simple really.

Best statement of 63 pages...  How did this ever get to 63 pages....

 

 

 

 

(Mmmm... Moderator options... Lock thread, Hide thread, Deleted thread.....!!!! ooooooo... Run away.. Don't touch the big red button..)

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58 minutes ago, Mo Murphy said:

I'm sure it would be nothing a 9'' grinder would worry about 😂

Mo

I think you'd need to add some strength to the chassis, it is separate, I think, but does share strength with the body. Or am I dreaming of something else.

 

The point I'm making is that the Slovak defender makes me aware of the potential in the disco 3/4 platform as a utility vehicle. And with prices approaching small ish money, known faults and good support networks, maybe it's a good option for a small holding or small business as a utility?

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A strong rear cab bulkhead and some 4×2 thick wall box would, I'm sure, resolve strength and rigidity issues

Mo

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2 hours ago, V8 Freak said:

Best statement of 63 pages...  How did this ever get to 63 pages....

 

 

 

 

(Mmmm... Moderator options... Lock thread, Hide thread, Deleted thread.....!!!! ooooooo... Run away.. Don't touch the big red button..)

It's only what people have done in the pub for years, until they banned smoking, got to get your moaning fix somewhere, we're British!

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3 hours ago, Cynic-al said:

It's only what people have done in the pub for years, until they banned smoking, got to get your moaning fix somewhere, we're British!

I think this is the best statement of 63 pages.

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