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Jamie_grieve

Thoughts and musings on the new defender

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3 hours ago, Cynic-al said:

It's only what people have done in the pub for years, until they banned smoking, got to get your moaning fix somewhere, we're British!

Funny, I live on the other side of the world (literally) and still identify as British.  I think people moan much more in New Zealand though, or maybe I've been lucky when I've been ot the UK?

Anyway, I'm trying not to moan at Land Rover but at a culture that has turned all vehicles into grossly un-Land Rover-like creations.  The manufacturers are stuffed and lots of us are upset because there is nothing we can do about it.  And no, a Ford Ranger or its ilk isn't even close to a replacement! We'll just have to keep buying up the old ones and restoring them until gummint says we can't.

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Especially over something as bitterly disappointing as the new Khan Ranger Rover Defender Sport

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12 hours ago, deep said:

Funny, I live on the other side of the world (literally) and still identify as British.  I think people moan much more in New Zealand though, or maybe I've been lucky when I've been ot the UK?

There are three things the British excel at;

  1. queuing, we find the longest line then stand in it for as long as possible
  2. complaining, about everything, it's all rubbish
  3. drunken brawls over the most insignificant of things - and you sir are two shandys away :lol: :hysterical:
12 hours ago, deep said:

Anyway, I'm trying not to moan at Land Rover but at a culture that has turned all vehicles into grossly un-Land Rover-like creations.  The manufacturers are stuffed and lots of us are upset because there is nothing we can do about it.  And no, a Ford Ranger or its ilk isn't even close to a replacement! We'll just have to keep buying up the old ones and restoring them until gummint says we can't.

I agree the new Defender doesn't replicate the old. I have a relation with a farm, he has a beat up L200 double cab, it usually has a diesel tank and all manner of junk in the back, 2 collies living on the back seat, every internal surface is covered in a layer of cack, every external panel has some mark on it, it goes in and out of every field, it does everything he needs, an old 110 double cab pickup could do that although it would cost more than an L200 to buy. His Mrs has a discovery sport, immaculate, lovely thing, tows horses, carries tack and looks good when they go out somewhere fancy. Could I see the new defender replace the discovery sport? Yes. Could I see it replace the L200? Not a chance. However they already have a Land Rover product so I don't see what Land Rover would gain from the extra model. 

At one part of the video he's making a big fuss about how they've put rubber mats in instead of carpet. He's exactly right rubber mats are essential for a working vehicle. That's why our cheap Citroen vans at work come with rubber flooring and when I ordered my VW pickup I ticked the option for rubber floor instead of carpet floor. Designers from other manufacturers don't need to think about things like this as they just know it. The designers at Land Rover are designers of luxury cars so things like this don't come naturally to them, the fancy touch screens is what they know. 

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When people can actually buy these things will we need a 'New Defender' section as an addition to the 'Defender' section?! Just thinking back to the controversy of the Evoque section :ph34r:

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A new defender section, so that they can be treated differently. 

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On 10/17/2019 at 1:45 PM, V8 Freak said:

Best statement of 63 pages...  How did this ever get to 63 pages....

 

 

 

 

(Mmmm... Moderator options... Lock thread, Hide thread, Deleted thread.....!!!! ooooooo... Run away.. Don't touch the big red button..)

Multiple posts throughout the 64 pages of people voicing their dismay at the number of pages of the discussion.

 

Which they've all contributed to by posting their dismay at the number of pages of the discussion ...

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 

 

Mo

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....so are we going to wave at a new Discfender when we see one coming the other way , eventually , sometime in the future ?

That distinctive Defender front end will be easy to spot too.

;)

Steve b

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5 hours ago, L19MUD said:

When people can actually buy these things will we need a 'New Defender' section as an addition to the 'Defender' section?! Just thinking back to the controversy of the Evoque section :ph34r:

Judging by the tumbleweeds blowing about in the Evoque section here I imagine that some new style Defender owners will look at the flavour of this place in much the same way as we would view a Ford Model T owners forum.

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5 hours ago, L19MUD said:

When people can actually buy these things will we need a 'New Defender' section as an addition to the 'Defender' section?!

"When people can actually buy these things" ??

Sure we can - whether as upfront cash, or on a 3- or 5-year PCP [remember, business-users get serious tax-offsettability].

Decry this mindset if you like  -  but remember that the cash-purchase, 3- or 5-year business-leased vehicles keep the factories churning-out product - and when these old surplus vehicles get dumped on the marketplace the off-road types get to buy them up cheap for play.

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On 10/18/2019 at 7:40 PM, steve b said:

....so are we going to wave at a new Discfender when we see one coming the other way , eventually , sometime in the future ?

That distinctive Defender front end will be easy to spot too.

;)

Steve b

No-one should do this, regardless of vehicle, it's just plain odd.

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On 10/18/2019 at 9:01 PM, Cynic-al said:

 

I agree the new Defender doesn't replicate the old. I have a relation with a farm, he has a beat up L200 double cab, it usually has a diesel tank and all manner of junk in the back, 2 collies living on the back seat, every internal surface is covered in a layer of cack, every external panel has some mark on it, it goes in and out of every field, it does everything he needs, an old 110 double cab pickup could do that although it would cost more than an L200 to buy. His Mrs has a discovery sport, immaculate, lovely thing, tows horses, carries tack and looks good when they go out somewhere fancy. Could I see the new defender replace the discovery sport? Yes. Could I see it replace the L200? Not a chance. However they already have a Land Rover product so I don't see what Land Rover would gain from the extra model. 

 

Well, you can't replace a pick-up truck with a station wagon!  JLR have gone quiet on the promised pick-up too.  IF one is produced, however, there is no reason at all that it can't replace that awful* Mitsubishi once it reaches the required status - "beat-up".  It's always been the way.

(*I have a Mitsubishi as a work car.  From that experience, I have to assume they are all horrible.)

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P.S. I had a head-on collision once.  I was in my Range Rover and hit an L200.  The Mitsubishi was completely written off, to the extent it had an impression of the engine stamped into the bulkhead.  My radiator developed a small leak but I still gave the chap a ride home afterwards.  Not picking on one brand in particular.  Just pointing out that a vehicle doesn't get tough by being old and beat-up; and that an expensive one can actually be stronger than a cheap one.  

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The L200 is indeed not the nicest vehicle in the world, although I'm not sure that the old defender won many awards for comfort, efficient demisters, heaters and a quiet drive, however both of those vehicles are ideal for the people who use themn the L200 is a 2001 and still doing what it was bought to do so it's hard to say it's a bad product, a lot of manufactures design the car to fall apart in an impact with the aim of protecting the driver. Plus they can be had new from around £18k + vat so they are built to a price. LR say how amazingly robust the new defender is and how it can go anywhere which is great, I would buy it based on those claims as I like robust and reliable, however the farmer wouldn't if the price tag is 3 times that of the pickup yet it's him that needs the robustness more than me. This is the area of the market that I think they have no interest in and so although I feel the defender will sell based on fashion, I think it will sell to people who might already buy Discovery Sports or Range Rover Sports. If LR already have those customers it's a lot of money to spend to not increase your customer base. Obviously if it's going to be the all new platform for future vehicles and it's got them a factory which is cheaper to operate than the existing factory which they can expand production into other models then you can argue value there I guess. 

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I don't want to argue because I agree that the target market for the Defender is not what it was many years ago, though that shift really happened during the later years of the old model anyway.  Surely people will buy the new one for fashion, just like they did the last one.  I was simply pointing out how unfair it is to critically compare a new vehicle with a battered old one!

Of course the person who buys a vehicle to trash in a farm, forestry or similar situation (New Zealand hunters come to mind!) will prefer a cheap old car - or even a cheap new car - to a higher quality and accordingly priced new one.  The point is, the new Defenders will be 18 years old one day and get used like that.  Heck, the farmer across the road from me already uses a Discovery 3 as his farm hack and it does an excellent job, although he uses his trailer more than he would if it was a pick up truck.  (IS an older Disco really the true replacement for an older Defender??  Ducks to avoid flying eggs and rotten tomatoes...)

The point I'm trying to make is that the fact the new Defender is new and shiny is no reason to say it's no good.  If you want a truck, it's not much good (until they actually make a truck).  If you can't afford it, it's not much good.  If, like me, you prefer very straightforward vehicles that leave the driver in charge, it's not that desirable.  Otherwise, it might be brilliant.  

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Ah come on, a big part of the internet is pointless arguments and misunderstandings. :lol:

The battered old L200 was bought new, with the intention of it being used for what it is, which it has done well. For new defender money a farmer can have a decent bit of machinery that will earn money. I like the new defender, I think it is brilliant, I think people will buy it, but I also think it's the same as the other models in the range which people already buy so I just don't get the business model. Maybe they will just sell more as it's the new thing on the street 🤷‍♂️

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2 hours ago, Cynic-al said:

I like the new defender, I think it is brilliant, I think people will buy it, but I also think it's the same as the other models in the range which people already buy so I just don't get the business model. 

Not sure I get the business model either. I have no idea why anyone would opt for a D5 now. It's not as if you can even opt it with a V8.

I know someone who I believe has ordered a new D110, he is trading in an RRS for it. I also suspect another friend with an LR4 will be getting one too, although maybe the 90 model. Both own traditional Defenders/Ninety's, but would appear to be keeping them.

I also suspect quite a few others in the Land Rover circle/club arena I know will also buy a new Defender, but I suspect almost everyone will be at the expense of not buying an alternative Land Rover product, rather than new customers to the marque. 

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2 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Not sure I get the business model either.

Me neither, but I assume someone (some people?) at Landrover has staked his career on thinking he does...

Chris

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3 hours ago, GBMUD said:

Me neither, but I assume someone (some people?) at Landrover has staked his career on thinking he does...

Chris

The same person that came up with the idea of having the 130 be just a longer version of the 110 (same wheelbase) and push it further up the price range. 🙄 Also, the same person that axed the pick up version, despite them claiming it was coming, even last year. 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Cynic-al said:

Ah come on, a big part of the internet is pointless arguments and misunderstandings. :lol:

The battered old L200 was bought new, with the intention of it being used for what it is, which it has done well.

... I just don't get the business model. Maybe they will just sell more as it's the new thing on the street 🤷‍♂️

If they bought that L200 new, then all good.  A 2001 isn't really that old, come to think of it.

The business model is surely driven by market research, accountants and gamblers?  I think it might be quite straightforward.

I've long considered the Land Rover "marque" is built on the IMAGE of a tough and capable workhorse, with a demonstrable history behind it.  It became quite successful in recent decades because they did a good job of convincing the press/buyers that the toughness and capability was under every luxury car they made.  Without an actual "tough" workhorse in the range, that whole premise slowly falls apart.  It was crucial that a Defenderesque vehicle was in the range to keep the perception going.  However, it didn't actually have to be a commercially uncompetitive truck.  A genuinely off-road capable people carrier is clearly going to sell better and reinforce the perceived image well enough.  Or, at least, I presume that's what they are gambling on?

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12 minutes ago, cackshifter said:

How were they ever going to do a pickup with a monocoque shell? 

I guess in the same way some vans are converted for stuff... they have a different rear section of chassis instead of the normal shell.

 

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