Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[FridgeFreezer]

18 hours ago, reb78 said:

Do the same with a D3 picture and I bet you wont tell the difference. 

About half way between the two I'd say...

[ThreePointFive]

27 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

About half way between the two I'd say...

That old Defender has those w*nk Khan faux armoured panels that may be making it look more different than it actually is, so I think your point is a good one. In my view the new Defender is the exact middle between the old model and a Disco 3 (onwards), for better or worse.

 

I change opinion on liking it or not with each new photo.

Edited December 7, 2019 by ThreePointFive

[FridgeFreezer]

17 minutes ago, ThreePointFive said:

That old Defender has those w*nk Khan faux armoured panels that may be making it look more different than it actually is,

Yeah it was the first piccy that came up at the right angle, shame it was of a chavved up chelsea tractor version

[Happyoldgit]

11 hours ago, Naks said:

Another one:

 

 

 

Some more arty farty slo mo shots of the Skoda Yeti lookalike doing ordinary stuff in a pretty controlled environment driven by the same baldy bloke.

Next?

[deep]

13 hours ago, Naks said:

Another one:

 

 

This video made me grumpy.  Honestly, it's like the factory is full of silly little children.  Jumps and "rally stages"?? There are already "sport" models in the range for that and, besides, nobody will ever seriously rally that massive lump anyway.  Where are the videos of a Land Rover carting hay up steep farm tracks, or carrying firewood out of rough forest block?  There can't be one because they only make cars now, so you'd need a trailer.  I guess that's where the money is these days.  Bored city slickers who'll pay for an image.  Rant over.

[BogMonster]

On 12/5/2019 at 4:18 PM, SteveG said:

Maybe this is what they meant by off road Mo...

 

What a load of marketing toss.

Most of our roads are worse than that in the winter time....

[FridgeFreezer]

16 hours ago, deep said:

This video made me grumpy.  Honestly, it's like the factory is full of silly little children.  Jumps and "rally stages"?? There are already "sport" models in the range for that and, besides, nobody will ever seriously rally that massive lump anyway.  Where are the videos of a Land Rover carting hay up steep farm tracks, or carrying firewood out of rough forest block?  There can't be one because they only make cars now, so you'd need a trailer.  I guess that's where the money is these days.  Bored city slickers who'll pay for an image.  Rant over.

I don't think you can blame the factory for this - LR have a full off-road testing course and they've shown more than enough "proper" off-road testing of this and all their other models over the years... I suspect that the journalists just want spectacular footage they think will appeal to the average idiot, and faster = more spectacularer innit?

Also, I have never seen any of the competition outside of J**p doing anywhere near the testing and mud-plugging that LR do with their stuff, certainly not in terms of PR photos/videos.

I mean, this may be small beer to the hairy-chested off-road warriors on here but I don't see any press shots of the BMW X3 or whatever fugly POS Mercedes make in the same slot doing this - and I reckon their management would soil themselves if they thought a customer might actually try it;

[miketomcat]

Ah that's what the soft top ewok is for drive in fill to the brim with muddy water drive out and dump elsewhere. Easy ditch clearing......

Mike

[Snagger]

45 minutes ago, miketomcat said:

Ah that's what the soft top ewok is for drive in fill to the brim with muddy water drive out and dump elsewhere. Easy ditch clearing......

Mike

I don’t know... the amount of them you see in ditches any time there is a dusting of snow makes me think they’re not going to be much use for dredging - they never seem to get themselves out of anything.

[Cynic-al]

57 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I don't think you can blame the factory for this - LR have a full off-road testing course and they've shown more than enough "proper" off-road testing of this and all their other models over the years... I suspect that the journalists just want spectacular footage they think will appeal to the average idiot, and faster = more spectacularer innit?

Also, I have never seen any of the competition outside of J**p doing anywhere near the testing and mud-plugging that LR do with their stuff, certainly not in terms of PR photos/videos.

I mean, this may be small beer to the hairy-chested off-road warriors on here but I don't see any press shots of the BMW X3 or whatever fugly POS Mercedes make in the same slot doing this - and I reckon their management would soil themselves if they thought a customer might actually try it;

My boss has a cayenne and when she bought it they provided an offroad training day to learn how to drive it. Equivalent to land rover experience I guess. 

 

By the way you do know the story of that photo don't you? They were caught in a downpour when testing and the water is what leaked out the door seals 🤣

Edited December 8, 2019 by Cynic-al

[FridgeFreezer]

5 hours ago, Cynic-al said:

My boss has a cayenne and when she bought it they provided an offroad training day to learn how to drive it. Equivalent to land rover experience I guess.

Similar probably but if it's anything like the off-road course at Merecedes you could drive it in a Smart car.

[Cynic-al]

Well the land rover one I did wasnt extreme but it was well setup to demonstrate the technology on the freelander 2 I was in. The bits that impressed me was a concrete bowl where you could get 2 opposite wheels off the ground with it bouncing from one to the other then pull away using the traction control, the second was a gravel down hill where the left 2 wheels were on rollers and the hill decent still kept the speed of the car the same. Obviously no issue of traction on both and not that replicating of real life but it did leave me feeling impressed with the car. 

[landroversforever]

2 hours ago, Cynic-al said:

Well the land rover one I did wasnt extreme but it was well setup to demonstrate the technology on the freelander 2 I was in. The bits that impressed me was a concrete bowl where you could get 2 opposite wheels off the ground with it bouncing from one to the other then pull away using the traction control, the second was a gravel down hill where the left 2 wheels were on rollers and the hill decent still kept the speed of the car the same. Obviously no issue of traction on both and not that replicating of real life but it did leave me feeling impressed with the car. 

And even more impressive to your average punter who hasn’t ever done anything off-road before. 

[BogMonster]

9 hours ago, landroversforever said:

And even more impressive to your average punter who hasn’t ever done anything off-road before. 

That's the point of all those off-road courses, make it a bit sideways and tippy for somebody who has never been in a vehicle on anything more than a steep driveway so that they go "ooh that's amazing", then throw in some mud, and then get their chequebook out. Most people in the world have no idea what proper off-road driving is like and it always amuses me here when somebody turns up saying they've driven off-road. A few have, but most go quiet after a bit ... I remember taking some tourists to a popular wildlife destination a few years ago and one of them said after about an hour "is the track this bad all the way or does it get better" ... at which point I had to break the news we were, in fact, still on what we call 'the road', and 'the track' hadn't started yet

[Ed Poore]

2 hours ago, BogMonster said:

I remember taking some tourists to a popular wildlife destination a few years ago and one of them said after about an hour "is the track this bad all the way or does it get better" ... at which point I had to break the news we were, in fact, still on what we call 'the road', and 'the track' hadn't started yet

I had that with a friend - has a lot of experience off road but we set ourselves the challenge to see if we could get his P38 and my 110 to the start of our land in the Highlands. We'd been doing tracks all the way up from the Lakes and around the north west of Scotland and each time he asked me to compare it to my planned route. Well, this track's a little easier than the access road... He got so nervous he phoned a friend who turned up a well set up petrol V6 SWB shogun (he and his father were responsible for Portalrover and the 6x6 designs).

Anyway we set off and the first "obstacle" is a long loose 1 in 3 slope with the odd boulder that tends to wash down and the odd tree to dodge. "**** Ed - this track is looking tasty", "um, we're still a mile and a half from the start of it" 

 

[Ex Member]

9 hours ago, BogMonster said:

Most people in the world have no idea what proper off-road driving is like and it always amuses me here when somebody turns up saying they've driven off-road.

And they have all come out on the web to tell us how great and capable this new thing will be.  You try and explain that they really don't have the experience to make a knowledgeable comment.  It is in one ear and out the other.

[deep]

21 hours ago, Red90 said:

And they have all come out on the web to tell us how great and capable this new thing will be.  You try and explain that they really don't have the experience to make a knowledgeable comment.  It is in one ear and out the other.

What's "capable" in a set of artificial circumstances designed to display what a vehicle can do will translate well to a limited set of real-world circumstances.  A car that is 2.3 tons empty with a bulbous/vulnerable front end will find circumstances where all the electronics in the world won't help.  I suspect that, given the tyre diameter and profile limitations, there will be places where the only advantage over my plain old 110 will be sheer power.  I am genuinely keen to see how the new one pans out.  As most of us are, of course ... other than those who have already decided!

[Chicken Drumstick]

Not directly aimed at the new Pretender. But all these off road modes, to my mind make off roading harder. In past times you just selected difflock/4wd and/or low range. And that was it.

These days you have 18+ off road modes, plus additional options and configurable controls. You need to not only be an expert on the terrain, but also the vehicles design parameters to even know what to select. Or blindly experiment through trial and error.

A friend had a 2.7 RRS, so Terrain Response, but somewhat simple compared to some of the newer systems. But still way too many modes. He is also a seasoned off-roader in competitions and overlanding. However he complained the RRS was horrid off road, example being. Going into a ploughed field. Select "Mud & Ruts" which would seem to be the most appropriate Terrain Response setting and the result is a horrible over sensitive jerky throttle. Making for high levels of discomfort. Especially when crossing over furrows.

I suggested trying the "Snow & Ice" setting as I'd read it softens the throttle response. And it worked wonders making the RRS far more comparable to a 35 year old 90 in terms of comfort. But it was only luck that I'd read up on it. Your average punter wouldn't have and would have had a worse experience in a modern vehicle compared to something old.

[Cynic-al]

I feel exactly the same when I drive automatics, just let me have a stick to put it in the gear I want it in, stop making me double guess what your going to do. I'm technology backwards 

My amarok has offroad mode on and off, traction control on and off and diff lock on and off. I've learn't you have to have traction control off when you go offroad otherwise it won't turn 🤷‍♂️

[Ed Poore]

3 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Not directly aimed at the new Pretender. But all these off road modes, to my mind make off roading harder. In past times you just selected difflock/4wd and/or low range. And that was it.

These days you have 18+ off road modes, plus additional options and configurable controls. You need to not only be an expert on the terrain, but also the vehicles design parameters to even know what to select. Or blindly experiment through trial and error.

A friend had a 2.7 RRS, so Terrain Response, but somewhat simple compared to some of the newer systems. But still way too many modes. He is also a seasoned off-roader in competitions and overlanding. However he complained the RRS was horrid off road, example being. Going into a ploughed field. Select "Mud & Ruts" which would seem to be the most appropriate Terrain Response setting and the result is a horrible over sensitive jerky throttle. Making for high levels of discomfort. Especially when crossing over furrows.

I suggested trying the "Snow & Ice" setting as I'd read it softens the throttle response. And it worked wonders making the RRS far more comparable to a 35 year old 90 in terms of comfort. But it was only luck that I'd read up on it. Your average punter wouldn't have and would have had a worse experience in a modern vehicle compared to something old.

Ah but that was the intermediate Terrain Response, the latest L405s have an automatic mode (unrelated to type of gearbox). Not sure if it's on any other models.

[Chicken Drumstick]

3 hours ago, Ed Poore said:

Ah but that was the intermediate Terrain Response, the latest L405s have an automatic mode (unrelated to type of gearbox). Not sure if it's on any other models.

But it has selectable modes too. So how is the average punter meant to know which mode to use and when to leave it in automatic? And how do you know if your selection was the correct one? 😉

[Ed Poore]

2 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

And how do you know if your selection was the correct one? 😉

Simples

Outcome: stuck - selected wrong mode

Outcome: not-stuck - selected right mode

[Ex Member]

They really should just label the modes like this.

carp - Slightly less than carp - Useless - Almost useful -What were they thinking

IME, the reactive nature of them all makes them a large PITA.  They need modes that force diff locks to stay on, for when the thing controlling the car, the thing with a brain, knows it is needed.

[Ed Poore]

4 minutes ago, Red90 said:

They need modes that force diff locks to stay on

You mean like sand mode?

[Chicken Drumstick]

1 hour ago, Ed Poore said:

You mean like sand mode?

I’m not saying it doesn’t work. But reading the details I do rather think I’d want manual control over the different aspects instead. It just doesn’t appear to match up the settings I’d want correctly. 

Mans I know having just setup a trials event last weekend. People do drive differently too. So it isn’t just about the terrain, but what you want to do with the vehicle and how you want it to behave. 

 

SAND: It’s important to maintain momentum on soft surfaces, so the system heightens engine and gearbox response, and locks the centre differential. 

ROCK CRAWL: On harsh terrain, maximum control is needed, so Terrain Response softens the accelerator response. 

GRASS-GRAVEL-SNOW: Electronic Traction Control intervenes early to prevent tyre slip, gear changes are sped up and the accelerator response is softened to help avoid loss of traction. Hill Descent Control is automatically engaged when needed. 

MUD-RUTS: The traction control system is optimised to allow controlled tyre slip, which provides the best traction in slippery conditions. 

GENERAL: Terrain Response maximises fuel efficiency and minimises emissions in everyday road driving.