Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[Chicken Drumstick]

In summary. I suspect for me it would be one of two scenarios:

-forever faving and switching modes to try and find the best one for the situation. Or wore finding none of them are quite right for the situation. 

Or

-end up using one mode for everything. Meaning that having such a system is wasted anyhow. 

 

I’m only theorising as I don’t own anything with Terrain Response. But pretty much every other system in the World that I’ve encountered to make things easier for dumb people (prolific in the software world and I’m a software tester) I always have usability issues with. As it never ever does what I want it too. 

[Ex Member]

2 hours ago, Ed Poore said:

You mean like sand mode?

It does not force the rear diff lock to engage.

Really...the center diff lock should be on 100% of the time when in low range.  Turning off and on is stupid.

[Ed Poore]

To be honest having off roaded an L322 more than most I can say that the traction control does work. It's actually really nice having the ability to change the throttle response.

The off road ability as I've said before is primarily limited by tyre choice, but it massively outperforms a Defender on the road which is where they get used most of the time.

[Ex Member]

Traction control just has physical limits.  You are good into moderate level tracks with it.  Beyond that, you need axle lockers and there is nothing the best traction control can do.  These newer LRs can come with rear lockers, but the ones I've seen won't let you force it on and it only turns on in a reactionary fashion.  On a hard obstacle, that many times too late to be of help.

[Naks]

I beg to differ - I've seen D3s on ATs go where Defenders with 35" MTs aren't able to go, the one track that stands out is a particularly hectic rocky climb that we did with the club. 

TR is like any other tool: you need to learn how to use it properly. 👍

[Cynic-al]

I like low range no diff lock for manouvering trailers etc. 

My experience of traction control is that it does make the vehicle capable of doing things vehicles without cannot without being modified, so for a road biased owner who wants to be able to get around offroad and doesnt want to rip their car to bits it's a good thing. The deadened throttle adjustable ride height, wheel braking systems etc all do a good job of making a vehicle multi purpose for a wide range of users whom might have no interest in the details of offroad driving or the technology. My big issue is that it always feel very reactive. Same as an automatic gearbox. I can predict what's coming and put things in place in advance, it can only do it once your wheel has slipped, you've lost traction and stopped etc. The modes are a bit like putting your gearbox in sport, it keeps the revs higher in anticipation your going to do something. Your making it look for certain things that might happen. 

[elbekko]

Terrain Response just requires you to drive differently. The system needs wheel speed to function properly, so don't try to trundle through with a feather on the throttle like you'd do in a Defender. As a bystander, it's beautiful to see the system work. Last time I watched it closely was on a D4, and it took less than a full wheel rotation before you saw the system kick in and send the D4 up a steep sandy slope.

I can only imagine the system has improved a lot since then.

But I do agree that it would be nice to have a manual mode. LR will never fit it as standard because it takes away the magic of the system their marketing relies heavily on, and the average punter wouldn't know what to do with all the settings anyway so would get stuck a whole lot sooner than with automatic TR engaged.

A good way to do it would be to just press the TR button for 5 seconds, it goes into manual mode, and a screen pops up where you can manually engage/disengage lockers, set throttle sensitivity, ...

[Inigo]

I'm sure I read somewhere that the new defender did have an element of manual control of things like diff lock, etc.  I thought this promising.

[BogMonster]

55 minutes ago, elbekko said:

A good way to do it would be to just press the TR button for 5 seconds, it goes into manual mode, and a screen pops up where you can manually engage/disengage lockers, set throttle sensitivity, ...

Absolutely agree with that and all the earlier comments about how all automatic systems are reactive. The one thing they all lack is a pair of eyes and the ability to make judgements ahead of arrival. The other thing they all (or nearly all) rely heavily on is putting the brakes on a lot, and that's a very finite resource if you are working a vehicle hard off-road, as well as being not what you want in quite a lot of situations.

[Chicken Drumstick]

11 hours ago, Ed Poore said:

To be honest having off roaded an L322 more than most I can say that the traction control does work. It's actually really nice having the ability to change the throttle response.

The off road ability as I've said before is primarily limited by tyre choice, but it massively outperforms a Defender on the road which is where they get used most of the time.

Outperforms in some areas such as comfort and NVH. I'd however hold my hand up and say a sorted 90 is more 'fun' to drive on the road and arguably handles better (not to be confused with grip/traction).

[Chicken Drumstick]

5 hours ago, Naks said:

I beg to differ - I've seen D3s on ATs go where Defenders with 35" MTs aren't able to go, the one track that stands out is a particularly hectic rocky climb that we did with the club. 

TR is like any other tool: you need to learn how to use it properly. 👍

MT's and rocks may not be the best mix anyhow. I would also suggest driver has a lot to do with it. And most Defenders I've seen running 35" tyres actually have poor performing suspension. Not saying this was the case, but it really wouldn't surprise me. Too much lift, lacking down travel and too stiff for compression. Lastly if it was an open axle diff Defender with no TCS, then yes of course -- cross axle situations will be a hindrance.

[Chicken Drumstick]

3 hours ago, Inigo said:

I'm sure I read somewhere that the new defender did have an element of manual control of things like diff lock, etc.  I thought this promising.

I think you can pay a horrendous sum, something like £1500+ for Terrain Response 2 or something that is meant to be customisable. But I'm unsure what it really lets you do.

[Ed Poore]

11 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Outperforms in some areas such as comfort and NVH. I'd however hold my hand up and say a sorted 90 is more 'fun' to drive on the road and arguably handles better (not to be confused with grip/traction).

Here is where we'll agree to disagree.

Having driven well sorted out 90s and 110s I'd say that on-road the 110 has it hands down, the 90 is just a bit too short and inherently bouncy in my opinion. I'd agree it might be more "fun" but smaller things usually are. Yes the 90 is lighter so acceleration might technically be quicker but I challenge you to find two Land Rovers with exactly the same performing power and drive train to compare head-to-head. One day you'll find a 110 accelerates quicker, the next you'll find a 90 I'm sure (before you even start going into engine conversions). However, for thrashing about the roads then I'd take an L322 over a 110 for actual handling, yes the Defender is more fun but basic things usually are. But as to actually outperforming it in any measurable sense, I don't think so?

A personal example that highlights this extremely well is when I used to beat on a pheasant shoot in Portsmouth I hit the same pothole on a corner in both the L322 and the 110 at a reasonable speed. The 110 due to it's solid axle on the front jumped sideways across the road as the inner wheel hit the pothole and that in turn affected the opposite wheel due to it being a solid axle, the 322 simply absorbed the shock without affecting the other wheels. Now one might argue that softer suspension on the Defender would have resulted in less of a kickback from the pothole but then that would have compromised other things. With the independent air suspension on the 322 the vehicle (and you by selecting the appropriate mode) can choose whether you want to simulate a live axle, arguably better for off-road, or fully independent suspension, definitely better on the road. You simply cannot do that on a "normal" Defender.

There is one large downside a friend discovered with the 322 on-the-road (this was a 3.6TDV8) was that it's so quiet on the road you honestly forget sometimes how much speed and therefore momentum you've gained. He loved driving and the first time I took him hill-stalking in the Highlands he drove my 322 all the way up. Now he's a petrol-head through and through and it's small sports cars not off-road vehicles. As we were driving down the side of Loch Laggan, opposite Ardverikie House (where they filmed Monarch of the Glen) he commented it was  little wallowy in the corners. Fair comment I said, the 322 was first-and-foremost set up for comfort, but have a look at the speedo when you go into a corner next. The response can't be written here but when he thought he was taking a corner at about 20mph he was doing more than double that.

28 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

MT's and rocks may not be the best mix anyhow. I would also suggest driver has a lot to do with it.

A useful comparison here I can provide is, if I'm thinking of the correct lane, Parkamoor in the Lakes which some on this forum will remember well. Although not a massively technical track there is a rocky climb in there. I did that track a number of years ago in the 322 and with no fuss or drama it simply drove straight up the track. I had not had the L322 long so was paying attention to the feedback from the Terrain Response on the screen and it didn't lock the centre diff at all on that climb. Cue a few years later and I did it again in the 110 with just the centre diff locked and it went up with minimal issue but far more slipping wheels than the 322 did. Cue a few months ago and I did it once again in the 110 but this time with all three diffs locked and that was roughly on-par with the 322 except a much rougher ride inside. Having said that the 110 was much cheaper at doing it because in the 322 I wrote off two tyres further up the track .

36 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

I would also suggest driver has a lot to do with it.

This is the single most important thing.

A very technical and difficult climb I did in the south of France saw a 3-door classic with LSDs in smash the climb (well might have been something to do with Fred's propensity to have one throttle position). The next vehicle up was a D4 which got itself beached and rather than risk damage we ended up having to do a double line winch pull off with Fred's classic to pull the Disco up. I went up fairly straightforward with centre diff and rear diff locked (didn't have front at the time). Cue a bunch of Tdci Defenders with traction control and a few attempts and increasing momentum they made it up. Then the pièce de résistance was a twin locked Land Cruiser on 35" tyres driven by someone who's driven all over the world in that vehicle, and she got stuck and had to be towed up by me. Subtly different line and slid off and risked panel damage on quite a tidy truck.

 

Having said all that - I sold the 322 about a year ago, but still have the Defender... I agree it's a lot more fun but if I was being objective the 322 was a better vehicle all-round. All the stuff I use the 110 for at the moment I could do with the L322 to a certain extent. But I prefer my Defender - although it's getting more and more bits off 322s added to it as the years progress!

[Chicken Drumstick]

I certainly don't deny the L322 is 'better' all round. Especially in the comfort department. Just not so on the fun side of things. Also off roading is very dependent on what you are doing. One of the sections we setup at weekend had a crest that when you went over it, the front bumper of a Defender was only about 1" clear of the ground. A Discovery or Range Rover of any sort would have been stuffing it's nose in the dirt, ok if it's a beat up trials vehicle. But not something I'd have wanted to subject a plastic fronted tidy road vehicle too.

[Cynic-al]

I think you also have to consider that not all on road driving is the same. At work we have a Jimny and for buzzing around the local area and popping into the village it can't be beaten for fun and ease of use. Do a 1,000 mile stint in a car and you realise the value of a decent seat, sound deadening and a drivetrain that you don't have to work constantly for every bump, hill or corner. You want to be distanced from the road.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Cynic-al

[Mo Murphy]

On the 8th day God made the 90, the rest of past current and future models were just failed initial attempts 

😛

Mo

[Ed Poore]

Was wondering how long it would be before the preacher arrived 

[deep]

5 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

I think you can pay a horrendous sum, something like £1500+ for Terrain Response 2 or something that is meant to be customisable. But I'm unsure what it really lets you do.

Nicely getting the thread back on topic!  Yup, if you pay extra, the new Defender allows the driver control over "certain parameters" of the traction control system.  I find this somewhat ironic - there was a time when you paid extra for automation and manual control came free!  This clearly shows the perspective of the decision makers at JLR today.  A long, long way from what it was.

[=jon=]

18 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

CHELSEA: It’s important to maintain momentum on Chelsea high street so the system heightens engine and gearbox response, and unlocks the centre differential. 

SCHOOL RUN: Under the harsh conditions of the school run maximum control is needed, so Terrain Response softens the accelerator response to ensure Tarquin and Hermione don't get car sick. 

PAVEMENT: Electronic Traction Control intervenes early to allow the mounting of pavements to facilitate illegal parking. Normally used in conjunction with SCHOOL RUN.

TRAFFIC JAM: Adaptive Cruise Control is used to allow easy driving in traffic. Often used in conjunction with mobile phone use and make up application. 

GENERAL: Terrain Response maximises fuel efficiency and minimises emissions in everyday road driving. 

Edited to reflect reality... 

[FridgeFreezer]

2 hours ago, deep said:

Nicely getting the thread back on topic!  Yup, if you pay extra, the new Defender allows the driver control over "certain parameters" of the traction control system.  I find this somewhat ironic - there was a time when you paid extra for automation and manual control came free!  This clearly shows the perspective of the decision makers at JLR today.  A long, long way from what it was.

Perhaps it just shows that the average punter can't be trusted to have things like difflock buttons as they'll just drive around on tarmac with difflock engaged and then file a warranty claim when something breaks... same reason modern cars limit engine power in certain gears to save the gearbox or go into limp mode when overheated... maybe annoying to some but I'll bet in the big scheme of things it saves an absolute ton of warranty claims.

Be honest, the vast majority of people tooling about in 4x4's and SUV's don't even know how to engage 4WD or what the various things do / when to use them... giving them a nice easy option like "snow" or "sand" or "mud" makes it far more idiot proof.

[Cynic-al]

28 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Perhaps it just shows that the average punter can't be trusted to have things like difflock buttons as they'll just drive around on tarmac with difflock engaged and then file a warranty claim when something breaks... same reason modern cars limit engine power in certain gears to save the gearbox or go into limp mode when overheated... maybe annoying to some but I'll bet in the big scheme of things it saves an absolute ton of warranty claims.

My amarok is torque limited in reverse, you have to rev the nuts off it when reversing a trailer uphill. In countries with sand dunes people code it out but you know, warranty 🙈

[Ed Poore]

Equally I think it was Si that mentioned the more modern Land Rovers have torque sensing diffs in them which means that broken half shafts are a thing of the past because it'll kill the power to the engine / wheel in order to save it.

[BogMonster]

13 hours ago, Ed Poore said:

Equally I think it was Si that mentioned the more modern Land Rovers have torque sensing diffs in them which means that broken half shafts are a thing of the past because it'll kill the power to the engine / wheel in order to save it.

Old ones have torque sensing diffsas well, the alarm sounds like a loud bang and a hole in the axle

[Cynic-al]

16 hours ago, Ed Poore said:

Equally I think it was Si that mentioned the more modern Land Rovers have torque sensing diffs in them which means that broken half shafts are a thing of the past because it'll kill the power to the engine / wheel in order to save it.

Which is why they don't want to allow it to be controlled manually 

[Chicken Drumstick]

19 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

 

Be honest, the vast majority of people tooling about in 4x4's and SUV's don't even know how to engage 4WD or what the various things do / when to use them... giving them a nice easy option like "snow" or "sand" or "mud" makes it far more idiot proof.

I think for me that is my issue. If you aren't an idiot, then such pre-set controls are maybe the wrong ones. I want to be able to set it up the way I want it, not how someone in an office behind a computer decided to set it up. If you buy a Jeep, G-Wagen, Toyota, etc they all have manual controls for these things in their more off road biased vehicles.