Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[Happyoldgit]

They probably tested it onrocks that did not meet the right texture, lighting or colour requirements for the marketing department. Image is everything.

[Anderzander]

20 hours ago, Red90 said:

It is a computer generated picture, not a real one....

I didn’t look that closely😮 - and it is just a poor photoshop job. You can see the tyres aren’t really sat on the rocks.

I guess that’s the budget limit for a roof rack manufacturer!

[Ex Member]

3 hours ago, Anderzander said:

I didn’t look that closely😮 - and it is just a poor photoshop job. You can see the tyres aren’t really sat on the rocks.

I guess that’s the budget limit for a roof rack manufacturer!

I'm quite sure the vehicle is not a real picture at all, but a 3D model placed onto a picture of some place.

[landroversforever]

It looks like it’s from the configuration tool to me. 

[deep]

14 hours ago, Snagger said:

Doesn’t do much for the credibility of the product, does it?  It shows they haven’t even field tested it.

Pretty hard to field test something on a car the press haven't even driven yet!

[Snagger]

2 hours ago, deep said:

Pretty hard to field test something on a car the press haven't even driven yet!

In that case, the product is not ready for sale and should not be advertised as such.

[discomikey]

23 hours ago, Snagger said:

In that case, the product is not ready for sale and should not be advertised as such.

That's assuming Frontrunner haven't been given a very limited amount of CAD of the roof surfaces and fixing points to work with. If they have, there's no reason they couldn't have engineered a roof rack by now. 

Granted they aren't going to be handing CAD out to every man and his business but it's not unheard of. 

[Snagger]

On 12/31/2019 at 12:39 AM, discomikey said:

That's assuming Frontrunner haven't been given a very limited amount of CAD of the roof surfaces and fixing points to work with. If they have, there's no reason they couldn't have engineered a roof rack by now. 

Granted they aren't going to be handing CAD out to every man and his business but it's not unheard of. 

A company selling products at their prices should not be selling an item that has been built but not significantly field tested, given the nature of their products.  I have no doubt that it’ll fit, but will it need alterations for practicality or ruggedness?  We don’t know, and nor do they.  If they haven’t been out on extended off road trips on washboard roads with a heavy load that would enable some genuine photos, then the product is untested and thus, in my view, unready.  It is all too common for expedition equipment to have design flaws, and rack are particularly prone to breaking on rough roads.

[SteveG]

I see that Discovery 5 sales slumped by 43% in the UK in 2019. 
 

it will be interesting to see what additional dent the arrival of the Defender makes to that in 2020.

 

You can’t blame the drop in sales fully on the looks of the rear of the D5. If so, the Defender better watch out too, with that fugly rear end. So it’s more likely down to to reliability issues, value compared to other brands and overall looks that’s hitting D5 sales. 

[deep]

9 hours ago, SteveG said:

I see that Discovery 5 sales slumped by 43% in the UK in 2019. 
 

it will be interesting to see what additional dent the arrival of the Defender makes to that in 2020.

 

You can’t blame the drop in sales fully on the looks of the rear of the D5. If so, the Defender better watch out too, with that fugly rear end. So it’s more likely down to to reliability issues, value compared to other brands and overall looks that’s hitting D5 sales. 

The Disco 5 isn't just ugly from the back!  The problem (styling wise) is that the whole thing has lost it's distinctiveness.  It's just another blob that could easily have come out of Korea.  When a Disco 4 wafts past, it still looks really classy.  A bit regal, even.  If a Disco 5 goes past, you don't even notice it until your sub-conscious self starts trying to work out why the back of that car is wonky.  While the new Defender may be a styling disaster to anyone who expected it to look like a traditional Land Rover, it very much has that distinctiveness of the Disco 3&4.  For that reason alone, I predict it will outsell the Disco 5 at 4:1.

[Snagger]

On 1/1/2020 at 10:32 PM, deep said:

The Disco 5 isn't just ugly from the back!  The problem (styling wise) is that the whole thing has lost it's distinctiveness.  It's just another blob that could easily have come out of Korea.  When a Disco 4 wafts past, it still looks really classy.  A bit regal, even.  If a Disco 5 goes past, you don't even notice it until your sub-conscious self starts trying to work out why the back of that car is wonky.  While the new Defender may be a styling disaster to anyone who expected it to look like a traditional Land Rover, it very much has that distinctiveness of the Disco 3&4.  For that reason alone, I predict it will outsell the Disco 5 at 4:1.

I think the Defender will certainly eat heavily into Discovery sales, as the two vehicles will be each other’s main competitors in spec and price.  Damned stupid strategy by LR, and it could be enough to kill the company, given how they were already struggling before the latest D5 figures and how Tata are in trouble financially and having a managerial civil war.  Most Indian business is built on fraud, and I suspect that to be true of Tata and that it’s catching up with them, like many other  big Indian businesses right now.  Not happy times for LR employees.

[deep]

15 hours ago, Snagger said:

I think the Defender will certainly eat heavily into Discovery sales, as the two vehicles will be each other’s main competitors in spec and price.  Damned stupid strategy by LR, and it could be enough to kill the company, given how they were already struggling before the latest D5 figures and how Tata are in trouble financially and having a managerial civil war.  Most Indian business is built on fraud, and I suspect that to be true of Tata and that it’s catching up with them, like many other  big Indian businesses right now.  Not happy times for LR employees.

It may not be that stupid.  It's VERY clear that LR have changed the target market for the Defender and, if you think about it, that market is (to a large extent) people who used to buy Discoverys before the bland new one put them off.  It's apparently a far bigger market than the former Defender one for an expensive working truck, so the approach should actually do the company more good than harm. That's because it will bring back a proportion of buyers who moved elsewhere, more than taking away buyers from Disco 5.

 I'd go further and say that the new Defender is really without peer in the modern market, for those well-heeled types who want a modern, roomy, gadget-laden vehicle which makes a statement of being rugged and go-anywhere and which genuinely won't falter at the first few hurdles.  Unless you can afford a G wagon.  If the 85 E.C.U.s don't fail too often and the air suspension doesn't continually misbehave, those people will probably love their Defenders and sales will be good.  (Just to be clear, I am a loooooooong way from that target market and wouldn't swap my 1987 110 for a new Defender without a massive bribe.  That doesn't mean I don't understand why they have done what they have done, even if I don't like it.)

I'll bet they are flat out trying to re-design the D(isaster) 5 right now...

[Anderzander]

11 minutes ago, deep said:

I'll bet they are flat out trying to re-design the D(isaster) 5 right now...

Ive pondered that - and I cant help but feel, when you hear Gerry McGovern speak, that they are so insular and inward looking - so lost in their own narrative that they may well not see it as their failure - but rather something like an ignorance in the customer, or perhaps some nuance of the market dynamic.

 

[Snagger]

So what you’re getting at, Deep, is that the new Defender is actually a replacement for the D5?  Still going to hurt them by duplicating lines and logistics for two models, however much I agree with you that the D5 is bland and a shift away from what the original Discovery owners wanted.  So, LR have alienated Discovery drivers as much as Defender enthusiasts...  It’s worse than I thought!

[deep]

4 hours ago, Snagger said:

So what you’re getting at, Deep, is that the new Defender is actually a replacement for the D5?  

Compliment to, not replacement for!  They've obviously decided that's going to be a more lucrative approach.  I'll bet they've spent far more than either of us researching the topic, so I won't say they're wrong.  Note, too, that some (likely large) proportion of people who actually bought their Defenders brand new (unlike many of us here) will also be happy with the new Defender.

At the end of the day, it's not just JLR's fault that the new Defender is such a complex and partly fake departure from the Land Rover heritage.  It's the sheep mentality of humanity, with bored people led by a bored press and totally taken in by a safety-obsessed mentality, which is, itself, fuelled as much by politics and big business as it is by any actual threat to humanity.  People, in general, would far rather "belong" than adopt a common-sense approach to life.  Or, to put it more simply, fashion dictates what cars people will buy far more than practical aspects of the car itself.  As a brand which has steadily become a fashion statement, Land Rover would have decided they had no option but to change tack with the Defender.

I still wish they'd grown a pair and built something practical...

[geoffbeaumont]

I would imagine the reluctance of buyers to invest in new diesel cars is also hitting the discovery (though that should apply to other models too). Diesel sales in the UK at least have collapsed - even as a proportion of overall car sales, and those are well down.

[Ex Member]

The already poor D5 sales will drop so far that they will probably need to drop the model.

[Mo Murphy]

I thought the Discovery 5 was a rebated Volvo !

Certainly looks the same. 😊

 

Mo

[Gazzar]

1 hour ago, Mo Murphy said:

I thought the Discovery 5 was a rebated Volvo !

Certainly looks the same. 😊

 

Mo

How dare you! My Volvo looks a hell of a lot better than that. And is more reliable. The Swedes are quite symmetrical.

[Mo Murphy]

Rebated ? Rebadged 😂

Mo

[Gazzar]

Could be autocorrelation. Or autoclave. Or autocue? 

 

That thing on phones that ruins your ability to spell.

[reb78]

The Volvo is waaay better looking than the D5!

[Snagger]

Deep, I think you credit their management with too much self discipline, intelligence and humility.  I think the reality is that McGovern has far too much power, that the management as a whole have fallen into the trap of being a lifestyle brand rather than manufacturer, and their arrogance has led them to shun working vehicles and pursue only luxury models.  Such hubris is very common, and it usually catches up with the company.  And it is right now.

[Naks]

"60 Defenders have officially arrived in the USA for demonstration purposes. These will be at the 4xfar festival presented by @landroverusa in California. It’s been nearly 3 decades since the D110 made its debut in the North American market. It’s good to see the name return officially to US showrooms."

 

[Bowie69]

..... And that is what $6m looks like nowadays....