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Jamie_grieve

Thoughts and musings on the new defender

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Never said they were unique, but people keep comparing to Jeep and Toyota, which are entirely different animals.

I didn't get what you were trying to say, because it felt like you were arguing against something I hadn't even said.... Or assumed or extricated from what I'd said.

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1 hour ago, Bowie69 said:

I don't get what you are trying to say.

I said making a new platform must have been hard as they are a small manufacturer trying to compete and a world stage with much larger manufacturers, and they are.... Revenue is revenue wherever it comes from, and having multiple platforms and higher revenue is obviously going to allow greater flexibility in creating another one.

This thread is dead, people just spouting stuff that they don't really know anything about and getting cross about it.

 

ūüėā

Pot

Kettle

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1 minute ago, Mo Murphy said:

ūüėā

Pot

Kettle

Hardly, I was idly pondering/surmising initially, people seemed to take this as fact and go off on one :(

...and no, I am not cross, so you can scrub that one off your list as well Mo ūüėõ¬†

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22 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Never said they were unique, but people keep comparing to Jeep and Toyota, which are entirely different animals.

I didn't get what you were trying to say, because it felt like you were arguing against something I hadn't even said.... Or assumed or extricated from what I'd said.

Jeep themselves are not so big a company. These days they are of course backed by FCA. But that aside. The CJ7 was replaced with the all new YJ Wrangler in 1987. And again in 1997 with the coil sprung TJ. Then the JK in 2007 and the JL in 2018. They are all clearly the same vehicle. Having not lost their heritage or design ethos. Jeep have alongside introduced many other models over the years to cater for different market sectors. But the Wrangler has remained very true to the 1940’s original. 
 

I simply cannot see any reason why Land Rover could not have done similar. 

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6 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Jeep themselves are not so big a company

They still had four times the revenue of LR in 2019.

LR are not even in the top 15, granted this is 2017 data:

1990658126_Screenshot2020-03-03at09_41_21.thumb.png.dec3a35b3ce6192355d7febf20993470.png

I didn't say they couldn't build a new platform (words in my mouth again), I said it was a huge problem not having a suitable platform.

Some might say the management bottled it, or knew they could make money another way and did that instead.

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The Jimny is also going to be discontinued in the UK as it pulls Suzukis range average CO2 figure above the acceptable limit for euro 6.2 in September, so sadly, even Suzuki can't do it! It seems if Suzuki made lots of hybrids, electrics or bigger cars, they could make the numbers work on paper, but they don't. :(

I drive a pickup in the UK, they are popular with councils, construction companies, farmers etc as they are good enough for the job and cheap enough to throw away which works on balance sheets. I can't see Land Rover wanting to compete in a race to the bottom but they might do a funky utility truck based on the defender. There are some posher pickups but not many want them as a car replacement as they are a bit too big, thirsty and uncomfortable for the UK. VW shareholders have never liked the Amarok as it doesn't sell like the other products in the range, they're dropping it in Europe for the same reasons as Suzuki and using the factory space to make electric vans. Fiat have almost completely dropped the rebadged L200 due to poor sales. Mercedes have dropped the rebadged Nissan due to poor sales. That leaves the L200 and Isuzu which have strong markets in Thailand. The Ford which is going to be made with VW in the future, Nissan are still making in Spain and offering a Renault badged version too. Toyota obviously, big in Australia. Then the Chinese LDV / Peugeot, Ssangyong, Great wall, generally all global products rather than UK specific. America is a big enough domestic market not to need to worry about exports so they can do their own thing. 

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Lol. You removed the bit about FCA..... ;)

I’ve just done some Googling and it would seem JLR are of comparable size to Subaru. Think LR shifted just under 1/2 million cars globally last year and Jag just under 200,000. 
 

I will concede many of these middle sized companies are often backed by larger ones, eg Jeep with FCA. Or even the likes of Bentley with VAG. 

However I still can’t see this as a real reason. Land Rover as mentioned previously already had a good platform in the outgoing model. They didn’t need to reinvent the wheel in order to modernise it. 
 

Land Rover also has all the tech from the dual chassis D3/4 and RRS technology. Which I’m sure could have been easily adapted to live axles. 
 

Someone else cited Lotus. A great example. And let’s not forget Tesla. Basically a start-up company that has produced more than one bespoke platform. 
 

And then there is partnering. Ford and Mazda do this. Ford and PSA have done too. Renault and Nissan. Nissan and Mercedes. BMW and Morgan. Fiat and Ford. Subaru and Toyota. 
 

JLR could have probably done something in this area too. And even if not a joint development of a Defender platform. Maybe they could have partnered or bought in engines, instead of developing their own. Money saved could have been invested in a new platform. 

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9 minutes ago, Cynic-al said:

The Jimny is also going to be discontinued in the UK as it pulls Suzukis range average CO2 figure above the acceptable limit for euro 6.2 in September, so sadly, even Suzuki can't do it! It seems if Suzuki made lots of hybrids, electrics or bigger cars, they could make the numbers work on paper, but they don't. :(

I'm not so convinced on this. I know it is the thing Suzuki UK are tauting in the motoring media. However the Jimny is only 154g/km of Co2. Which I suspect makes it one of the lower polluting 4x4's on the market.

e.g.

Jeep Wrangler 197-213g/km

Land Cruiser 199-207g/km

Evoque 143-188g/km

Suzuki make a range of low emission cars. They are only importing 750 Jimny's to the UK this year. I truly struggle to see how the figures stack up to the claim being made. Jimny's are also in short supply in other markets, which I suspect is a bigger reason. They would rather supply those markets than the UK.

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19 minutes ago, Cynic-al said:

I drive a pickup in the UK, they are popular with councils, construction companies, farmers etc as they are good enough for the job and cheap enough to throw away which works on balance sheets. I can't see Land Rover wanting to compete in a race to the bottom but they might do a funky utility truck based on the defender. There are some posher pickups but not many want them as a car replacement as they are a bit too big, thirsty and uncomfortable for the UK. VW shareholders have never liked the Amarok as it doesn't sell like the other products in the range, they're dropping it in Europe for the same reasons as Suzuki and using the factory space to make electric vans. Fiat have almost completely dropped the rebadged L200 due to poor sales. Mercedes have dropped the rebadged Nissan due to poor sales. That leaves the L200 and Isuzu which have strong markets in Thailand. The Ford which is going to be made with VW in the future, Nissan are still making in Spain and offering a Renault badged version too. Toyota obviously, big in Australia. Then the Chinese LDV / Peugeot, Ssangyong, Great wall, generally all global products rather than UK specific. America is a big enough domestic market not to need to worry about exports so they can do their own thing. 

Yet despite what you are saying. I'm amazed Land Rover want no part of such a market at all. Surely if each vehicle is profitable and they sell some, it would still be a win win. And why LR never made a pickup variant of the D3/4 for the US market I'll never know. Pickups are mainstream over there. And they don't need to compete at all with the big companies to be successful. They could sell loads (relatively speaking) for LR.

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At the risk of being insulted , shot down or accused of being passive aggressive (what ?, yes I know what it means but really ?) doesn’t the last 86 pages lead us back to the same conclusion, the old Defender is dead , the new one is basically a Disco in different clothes (a reverse on the old Rangey becomes 90/110 becomes Discovery ) if you want one buy one , if u don’t buy something else , I know this doesn’t help those that want a modern live axle Land Rover but there isn’t one so you can’t have one . 
 

My last post on the subject and my last time opening the page !

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Is it over yet?

If you want to buy a new Defender buy one, if not don't. All the urinating contests regarding the new model on here won't change JLR's business model one little bit.

I'd like to go back some years and watch folks talk about Zeus timing gears, oil in TD5 looms &failed oil pump drives or misaligned 300Tdi timing pulleys. Those were the days when I enjoyed looking in here and seeing who was spoiling for a bundle that day. In my impatient senior years this thread just seems to be going around the same well worn track every few days.

Boring.

Methinks it's time I moved on.

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Making a car on a new platform isn't just a matter of designing it. You also have to be able to build it. Parts and platform sharing allows it to be build on the same if not very similar production lines as the other cars. VAG is a master at this.

A manufacturer like Jeep can have an assembly plant for the Wrangler because their other cars share a platform with the rest of FCA.

Tesla isn't exactly the best example of good production practices...

For a manufacturer like LR it makes sense to reuse a platform. And who cares that it's old if it works well? How many issues are there with the D7 platform other than "it's not a live axle"?
I'm sure LR didn't spend 10 years twiddling their thumbs. They most likely had a bunch of different concepts, all of which were evaluated, and what they have now released as the new Defender ticked the most boxes for them, simple.

Or they could've build an entirely new assembly plant for a live-axled Defender with a ladder chassis that ticks everyone's boxes, and charge 150k for it, and then everyone would still be crying because it's too expensive.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

I'm not so convinced on this. I know it is the thing Suzuki UK are tauting in the motoring media. However the Jimny is only 154g/km of Co2. Which I suspect makes it one of the lower polluting 4x4's on the market.

e.g.

Jeep Wrangler 197-213g/km

Land Cruiser 199-207g/km

Evoque 143-188g/km

Suzuki make a range of low emission cars. They are only importing 750 Jimny's to the UK this year. I truly struggle to see how the figures stack up to the claim being made. Jimny's are also in short supply in other markets, which I suspect is a bigger reason. They would rather supply those markets than the UK.

A bigger car is allowed a bigger limit. Then there are extra credits available for manufacturers who make low emission cars. It's all very complicated so I don't pretend to know the exact ins and outs. The fleet average will be 95g/km so for every jimny they sell suzuki need to sell 2 cars at 65g/km for example. The suzuki swift is 115g/km so even without the jimny they need to get some credits somewhere. Although demand out strips supply its still not going to be a huge seller in the UK. There was talk of bringing in a commercial version which, i think, is allowed 147g/km. They also have a smaller engine version they sell in japan. Obviously there could be a lot more to it than that, I'm sure there is a business centred reason too!

Part of teslas income is selling their credits to people like Fiat/Jeep. Toyota can offset with their hybrids. Land Rover are far behind but are starting with various hybrids. 

The Americans buy a lot of pickups, but they are also cheap. Last time I was there I had a look at a silverado HD, double cab, 6 litre v8, locking diffs, leather, tows 6 tonnes and who knows what else for $47,000. A 5ft person could stand infront of it and you would run them over without ever knowing they were there. That's about £37,000, for that Land Rover have to make a modified version for the US market, ship it, pay any duties etc etc. When faced with that or pushing a $100,000 range rover down the production line destined for China or Dubai where the modifications are different wheels and leather colour you can see why they did what they did. 

Edited by Cynic-al

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5 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

I don't get what you are trying to say.

I said making a new platform must have been hard as they are a small manufacturer trying to compete

That's the part I disagree with. I used lotus as an example of an actually small UK based manufacturer with exactly the same problems as JLR competing on a world stage in a far more niche market yet who are building innovative and modern designs using advanced manufacturing techniques and successfully making a profit. 
I wholeheartedly disagree that JLR couldn't have developed another platform when the one they have used is already 10 years old and not suited to that of a defender replacement anyway.

My point about Toyota was that the part of the business allocated to Land Cruiser 70 series development probably isn't larger than the resources allocated to the development of the new Defender yet still yields a profitable vehicle with a long term vision much more in line with what that market wants. It is in my opinion, what the new Defender should have been aimed at to keep the land Rover brand recognised globally in a manner more like it was in the 60's rather than as a manufacturer of unreliable tarts handbags which seems to be the current direction.

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46 minutes ago, Cynic-al said:

The Americans buy a lot of pickups, but they are also cheap. Last time I was there I had a look at a silverado HD, double cab, 6 litre v8, locking diffs, leather, tows 6 tonnes and who knows what else for $47,000. A 5ft person could stand infront of it and you would run them over without ever knowing they were there. That's about £37,000, for that Land Rover have to make a modified version for the US market, ship it, pay any duties etc etc. When faced with that or pushing a $100,000 range rover down the production line destined for China or Dubai where the modifications are different wheels and leather colour you can see why they did what they did. 

Are the pickups really that cheap these days? Sure there are cheaper offerings, but they also run to $80-100k if you want. They are well specced too, some very fast and depending on model and spec can tow in excess of 30,000lbs!!!! That's getting on for 14 tonnes. Which is more than the corn carts I haul at harvest with a JCB Fastrac.

As for pricing, Land Rover already build here and ship to the USA, then sell it for less than they charge here. Has been going on for decades. And besides, any LR pickup doesn't need to directly compete against every potential F150 or Silverado sale. They only need to tempt enough to be successful. Even Honda build and sell a pickup for the US market.

And pickups are everywhere over there. Probably the most common vehicle on the roads.

Ford sold 900,000 pickups last year in the USA. Between the top 5 that is over 3 million trucks. If Land Rover managed even 1/2 % of this, that would be 15,000 vehicle. And for a company that only currently sells 70-90k a year in the USA, would be a significant increase in volume. And if it proves a good seller, JLR should do what every other car makers does in the USA. Open up a plant and build locally. Why Rover/Leyland/BMC/BL/Austin Rover never did this, beggars belief.

 

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1 hour ago, Cynic-al said:

....for that Land Rover have to make a modified version for the US market, ship it, pay any duties etc etc.

As stated earlier.  You can't sell a pickup in the USA unless it is built in North America due to the chicken tax. LR is not big enough to open a plant there.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah they do have more expensive pickups, I think these were up around the $100,000. What the heck you'd use it for I don't know but I want one!

img_TIogloWh0U.jpg.43382faa64f29c48ff92fdd8937ab912.jpg

 

LR could export them, they just have to pay the tax which would make them even more uncompetitive. Or import them as a kit of parts and have them finished locally so you wouldn't have to have to setup the whole operation. With the Freelander 1 for example they could've import as a car, take the back roof off locally and panel out the back to get around it. Sell it as a small half tonne off road truck.  

I guess the other angle to look at is LR aren't LR. They are LR subsidiary of Tata / BMW / Ford / Rover etc. who will all have their own agenda. Ford for example sell premium and working level pickups in the US so they probably wouldn't want another product, but a Range Rover SUV has better street cred status than a Ford SUV so it gives them something different. 

The production facility in the UK probably doesn't have the capacity for 0.5% of the US pickup market so it comes back to where can they make the most money per vehicle down the line, US pickups or Dubai Range Rovers. 

Either way all we can say is LR didn't go that way!

Edited by Cynic-al

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34 minutes ago, Cynic-al said:

LR could export them, they just have to pay the tax which would make them even more uncompetitive.

It is a 25% import duty.  It does not work.  Nobody imports pickups. Everyone builds locally.

If you guys think $47000 USD is cheap, I'm really scared to know what you pay in the UK. I would not pay half of that for any vehicle ever. That is crazy rich people money.

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It's interesting that the Jimny is mentioned. Someone I knew bought one last year to replace a Freelander - and has since sold it on, to be replaced by a Dacia. She couldn't live with the noise, the sluggishness and, as she put it, "freaky handling" of the Suzuki. The Dacia will probably last her a couple of years.

Another data-point: an equine-vet friend who is just about to retire is looking at having to buy - for the first time in 40 years - a car with his own (rather than his practice's) money. He's gone through pretty much every 4x4 option in his working life: Sierra XR4x4, Audi Quattro, a couple of Defender-90s, a RRC or two, Discos, Subarus, a Volvo XC90, Vauxhall Insignia 4x4 tourer, BMW X5, a Mercedes 4Matic, a Mitsu Outlander PHEV, a Ford Ranger, an Isuzu Trooper.

Top of his likely-list now is a Skoda Kodiaq with all the options ticked.

The market for 'industrial' 4x4 vehicles has largely been taken by double-cab-pickups (look at the global sales of the Hilux!) - even a Hilux these days comes with the car-like creature-comforts and features people have come to expect. Sure, there may be some hardcore types who want 1.5-Metre wading capacity and complain about a car coming as standard with 'luxury' stuff like a good sound-system, carpets/airconditioning - but the market shows very little interest in de-contented upmarket agricultural vehicles. You don't buy a UNIMOG as your daily-driver, and I doubt tjhat if Mr. Ineos gets his Grenadier into production there will be many sold as daily-drivers either.

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As a counter opinion. I have a new Jimny. Had it 3 weeks and spent some 38 hours in it and over 900 miles. 
 

Not sure it is really a direct Freelander alternative. I certainly wouldn’t have considered a Freelander for my use at any rate (despite liking them). 
 

However I find some of the comments quite baffling. It is really really quiet. Trundling about at anything below 60mph and it is near silent. The loudest thing is the heater fan. I’m staggered how silent it is. At 70mph there is a bit more noise and it will be more happy at 65mph. But it certainly isn’t any louder than a Freelander at that speed. 
 

As for the performance. I think it feels really peppy. It’s a lovely engine, super smooth. Pulls from nothing and will eagerly rev to the red line. It isn’t the last word in performance. But it feels significantly more spritely than a Td4 or 1.8i Freelander. And carries a better power to weight ratio. In fact it has a similar power to weight ratio as a MINI Cooper convertible (not the current one the previous shape). 
 

Also no idea what is meant by freaky handling. It’s nimble, stable and fun in the corners. Feels like a Defender 90 that has lost half - three quarters of a tonne of weight.

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1 hour ago, Red90 said:

It is a 25% import duty.  It does not work.  Nobody imports pickups. Everyone builds locally.

If you guys think $47000 USD is cheap, I'm really scared to know what you pay in the UK. I would not pay half of that for any vehicle ever. That is crazy rich people money.

You can spend $25,000 in the UK on a ford fiesta. My Amarok was more than a Silverado and it's half the truck, literally :lol:

We have a new shape Jimny at work and it's certainly not a car for the masses. Anything over 50mph and you feel like your thrashing it, especially if your used to a big lazy diesel. It rolls in corners and you can't corner fast. However it's acceptable if your buying it for what it was built for as they aren't the number one attribute. If you want a vehicle which can go up a muddy lane or into a flat horse field but otherwise is a normal car it's perhaps not for you. Your better with a car with 4x4 and longer springs like the the Panda or Dacia. The great thing about them is you can sell them for more second hand than they are new at the moment. 

The Skodas are a great choice as long as your not brand conscious. I think they're better finished than the audis. The ssangyong are good for the money too. 

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6 minutes ago, Cynic-al said:

You can spend $25,000 in the UK on a ford fiesta.

It that seriously as low as they go?  Base MSRP for a Fiesta in the US is $14260.

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The "freaky handling" comment about the Jimny was after a particularly fraught drive down the M4 in high winds.

Overtaking the usual 56MPH slow/middle-lane-hogging HGVs when there's a gusty 40MPH sidewind... her legacy 2014 Freelander handled that sort of stuff happily at 70-75MPH, the Jimny utterly not-so, even when it was weighted down in the back by as many bags of Mollichaff you can possibly fit in.

She's now happy doing the same trip in the Dacia [which, it has to be said, is a hell of a lot of 4x4 for the money].

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But isn’t that a bit like saying driving an MX-5 felt horrible driving it at 50mph over a ploughed field. 
 

methinks lack of driver ability and common sense is to blame. Not the attributes of the vehicle. But maybe they are the sort of person who tries to hammer screws into wood...... Cause it works when they use nails. 

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