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Jamie_grieve

Thoughts and musings on the new defender

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11 hours ago, elbekko said:

x1raj310ppl41.jpg

Is it just me, or would that have created less angst if it had been wheeled out with a "Defender" badge on the front, instead of what LR actually produced?  Don't know what's underneath but the clean lines, big rubber and decent ground clearance inspire confidence on the strength of one photo!  Nice.

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On 3/8/2020 at 3:07 PM, Jamie_grieve said:

Here's a video of a well driven 110 daily driver on far more challenging terrain for comparison:
 

 

I think this video sums up the new Defender issue for me. He rips off a bit of steel on the way down the first slope and doesn't seem to be too concerned about it (who would be?!) but if that was to happen in a shiny new Defender you'd be looking at a fairly hefty repair bill. Not saying i'd have a new defender down that slope, of course, but it's a good comparison of where they've gone wrong with the new one in my eyes. It's not a utility vehicle, it's a luxury SUV and therefore isn't deserving of the Defender badge.

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& USA market vehicle don't have to comply with the EU regs that LR have to abide by to sell vehicles in EU markets.

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1 hour ago, western said:

& USA market vehicle don't have to comply with the EU regs that LR have to abide by to sell vehicles in EU markets.

Not sure what you mean. By and large the USA regs are stricter than EU ones. And LR and Jag have always sold slightly different versions for the EU and N American markets. Usually bumpers and lights related. 

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11 hours ago, Red90 said:

Yes.  They don't have people like Gerry designing their off road vehicles.

Yes, because the designer is the only reason Ford can make such a vehicle, and LR can't. 🙄

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13 hours ago, Anderzander said:

It’s badged as ‘an uncompromising 4x4 with separate chassis and live axles’ ...

https://www.motor1.com/news/133270/new-ford-bronco-facts/

If I recall the Bronco will have the same setup as the next gen Raptor, independent front and live axle in the rear with coils and a watts linkage. Current raptor uses leaf springs in the rear.

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Posted (edited)

They've certainly kept the shape of the old bronco with the straight wings that round off at the front but I think what makes that vehicle is the wheels, big, sticking out at the side and not completely covered in plastic trim front and back. Also ground clearance under the sills etc. It makes the visual distinction between offroader and school run SUV in a lot of ways. The separate front bumper is obviously going to get pulled off for a clipped steel winch bumper which is easy for the home fabrication types, it is harder to do on a car with a fitted plastic bumper but not impossible if you look at things like the Rhino bumper for the amarok for example. Although if that's where LR have put the various radiators & coolers it creates a bit more head scratching.

I think the big problem for car manufacturers in Europe at the moment is they're all struggling to meet the Euro 6.2 and they don't have the freedom to have one off the wall product at the moment as it pulls the whole range down.  

Edited by Cynic-al
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54 minutes ago, SteveG said:

If I recall the Bronco will have the same setup as the next gen Raptor, independent front and live axle in the rear with coils and a watts linkage. Current raptor uses leaf springs in the rear.

I was going off here Steve:

Quote

Ford says the new Bronco will be a real, no-compromise, body-on-frame 4x4 built to take on some of the toughest terrains. It will offer notable features like solid front and rear axles and an "Air Roof." Ford says it's a "no-compromise midsize 4x4 utility for thrill seekers who want to venture way beyond the city."

It was from here:

https://www.motor1.com/news/133270/new-ford-bronco-facts/

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8 hours ago, elbekko said:

Yes, because the designer is the only reason Ford can make such a vehicle, and LR can't. 🙄

I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at.  The head designer is the person that decides what is built.

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14 hours ago, Red90 said:

I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at.  The head designer is the person that decides what is built.

Precisely, look what half wit is at lr.

Mike

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15 hours ago, Red90 said:

I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at.  The head designer is the person that decides what is built.

He decides what it looks like. That you can blame on McGovern. The platform and such, I very much doubt it. Ford just has much larger budget, *and* the expertise of making live axles work on a modern vehicle. LR doesn't, and would've had to invest billions instead of reusing the perfectly capable D7 platform.

That's what I'm getting at.

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5 hours ago, elbekko said:

....the expertise of making live axles work on a modern vehicle. LR doesn't, and would've had to invest billions instead of reusing the perfectly capable D7 platform.

You are joking right? LR has used live axles for 68 years. It is simple.

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5 hours ago, elbekko said:

He decides what it looks like. That you can blame on McGovern. The platform and such, I very much doubt it. Ford just has much larger budget, *and* the expertise of making live axles work on a modern vehicle. LR doesn't, and would've had to invest billions instead of reusing the perfectly capable D7 platform.

That's what I'm getting at.

You can’t be serious can you. Expertise in making live axles work. Wtf do you think Land Rover has been doing for decades. It isn’t exactly a black art or secrete formula either. Just basic engineering with a 100 years worth of history. 
 

Next you’ll be claiming they don’t know how to use round wheels either.... 😂

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When was the last new, live axle model?

They don't have a modern live axle platform, they do have an independently sprung monocoque, which will do fine for their purposes. 

So they did.

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31 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

They don't have a modern live axle platform, they do have an independently sprung monocoque, which will do fine for their purposes. 

Exactly this. There is nothing "basic" about making a live axle work in the modern market. Hell, look at the reviews of the new Jimny to see how hard it is.

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Just now, elbekko said:

Exactly this. There is nothing "basic" about making a live axle work in the modern market. Hell, look at the reviews of the new Jimny to see how hard it is.

Sure it is.  If you are an engineer, it is a simple job.

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... you design it all then, a whole new platform basic on live axles, that handles as well as the D7 platform, and go present it to Land Rover. If it's that easy.

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Just now, elbekko said:

... you design it all then, a whole new platform basic on live axles, that handles as well as the D7 platform, and go present it to Land Rover. If it's that easy.

No problem.  All they need to do is ask.

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1 hour ago, elbekko said:

... you design it all then, a whole new platform basic on live axles, that handles as well as the D7 platform, and go present it to Land Rover. If it's that easy.

Isn't that what Ineos is doing with I suspect far scanter resources than Land Rover ?

So they've already rather shot down that argument methinks. 

Mo 

 

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2 hours ago, elbekko said:

Exactly this. There is nothing "basic" about making a live axle work in the modern market. Hell, look at the reviews of the new Jimny to see how hard it is.

I don’t get your point. I’ve seen lots and lots of very positive reviews for the Jimny. Which under the body is very similar to the 3rd Gen model launched 20 years ago. And neither are all that different from a traditional Defender. 
 

What exactly are you thinking is so difficult or impossible?????

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2 hours ago, elbekko said:

... you design it all then, a whole new platform basic on live axles, that handles as well as the D7 platform, and go present it to Land Rover. If it's that easy.

Why mention handling? Handling is about feel. Live axles and independent suspension will always feel different —— because they are different. 
 

And why does it need to be 100% new. Apart from the manufacturing process (welding as opposed to hydro forming) the Defender chassis is 100% fine. As would a Disco 2 or p38 chassis be. 
 

It also probably would take very little to adapt the D4 platform as it has a separate chassis to accept live axles. 

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Gerry gets all defensive, oh dear...

https://gearpatrol.com/2020/03/09/land-rover-design-boss/

best quote, below - I think that’s mostly because he’s not ‘a car guy’, as Jay Leno would say.

Quote

We were thinking earlier about where do your influences come from; I’m not your typical car designer,

and this piece gives an indication of what he thought of the previous Defender....

Quote

But the [side of the old ones] was so flat because the pressings were such carp. On some of these [older] Defenders, you look along the body side and it’s like the Atlantic Ocean. Well, that’s unacceptable for a modern-day vehicle.

 

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