mat2495 Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 Evening all, I think i may have a problem setting up the injector pump timing on my 200tdi. Apologies in advance for the wall of text The backstory: this is a completely rebuilt engine for a 110 I am restoring, reground crank, bores honed, new rings, bearings, 2x new rods, new turbo etc etc. Obviously a new timing belt, tensioner etc as well. Before I removed the injector pump from the engine, it was locked in the TDC position, and was put back in the same place, the cam/crank were then aligned with the timing marks and a new belt fitted as per manual. When I eventually came to start it, it was pretty reluctant to go, and when it did catch it was throwing out loads of white/grey smoke. it also wouldn't pick up any revs cleanly, just bogged down. To me this suggested that the timing was retarded, as the smoke smelled very diesel-y, but I rechecked using the slot on the flywheel and the pin in the pump, which checked out okay. I did wonder about a leaking injector, as the engine had been stood for some time, so I swapped them out with the ones from my other engine (a good runner) but it did not make any noticeable difference. Today I decided to go back to my first thought, so I advanced the timing as far as the slots in the injector pump pulley locking plate would allow, and it was much better, started nearly instantly, quite a clean idle, and just a little smoke when prodding the throttle. So onto the question, is there any way the key in the front of the injector pump could become disassociated with the actual correct timing point of the pump? I did not remove the drive flange from the pump at any time, as I don't think the 200 pump has a keyway on it. I guess a sensible next step is to set up the pump timing with a DTI, is there a kit available with the necessary adapters? Also as I have maxed out the travel on the adjustment available, I suppose I will have to strip the timing cover off again, which I didn't really want to do. Alternatively can anyone think of anything else that could cause symptoms like these? Is there anything internal to the pump that can affect the injection timing? Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 if you haven't moved the pulley or drive boss from the FIP shaft & slackened off the 3 bolts during tensionning of the belt it should be fine once all set & tightened up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cackshifter Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 Is it possible there is some degree of option in where the flywheel mounts on the crank, as that relationship also come into play? You must have had that apart to regrind the crank. Apart from that it does sound like you may not have the belt quite right. The timing kits are available with and without DTI on ebay, and doubtless elsewhere, and there are videos of it on youtube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 22 minutes ago, cackshifter said: Is it possible there is some degree of option in where the flywheel mounts on the crank, as that relationship also come into play? You must have had that apart to regrind the crank. Apart from that it does sound like you may not have the belt quite right. The timing kits are available with and without DTI on ebay, and doubtless elsewhere, and there are videos of it on youtube. 19J shown below, I'm sure the 200Tdi will be the same. There is a locating dowel on the crank for the flywheel so you can only put it on in one position. The fact that when the pump sprocket was moved resulted in an improvement suggests to me that the pump timing is not quite right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 Yes there is a location dowel on a 200tdi crank, it's the same crankshaft in both engines, this is mine during the rebuild Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim2809 Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 fourby 4x4 do a dti kit for the pump. speak to neil he will sort you out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat2495 Posted October 29, 2018 Author Share Posted October 29, 2018 17 minutes ago, Tim2809 said: fourby 4x4 do a dti kit for the pump. speak to neil he will sort you out Thanks Tim, I will give them a call. 18 hours ago, western said: if you haven't moved the pulley or drive boss from the FIP shaft & slackened off the 3 bolts during tensionning of the belt it should be fine once all set & tightened up. I agree it should be right, and as you say the flywheel is doweled onto the crank. Is it possible that the boss on the front of the FIP has slipped slightly at some point? I know its tight on a taper, but I have reason to believe the engine came to a very sudden stop before I bought it, could it have slipped then? Its looking at something like 10 degrees out of line, maybe more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 The pump shafts do not have a key. The flange is installed and set by the pump builder in order to get the timing correct.. It could be off. Use a dial gauge to set the timing. It is a much better method and you know it will be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat2495 Posted November 6, 2018 Author Share Posted November 6, 2018 Righto, time for an update! I got a DTI kit, and set the FIP to 1.54mm of lift at TDC ( I also checked that no 1 was at TDC when the timing mark on the flywheel said it was) and it is actually worse.. 1.54mm of lift is actually less advance than I had tried previously by simply maxing out the advance adjustment. Long story short, unless the pump has got something else wrong with it internally, it doesn't appear to be the problem. Anyone got any other ideas for what could cause clouds of white-ish smoke and the inability to rev? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 How exactly are you verifying TDC? My best guess at this point is cam belt is installed wrong with the cam out a tooth or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR-HIPPO Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Probably unrelated, but I will throw it out there. I think I had a similar issue with an old ford transit diesel engine retrofit many years ago. IIRC it was caused by having the wrong banjo fitting in the Fuel return line. The incorrect banjo had a very small hole internally and was restricting the flow to return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Some flywheels have two notches which can create your problem if you're timing from the wrong one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat2495 Posted November 7, 2018 Author Share Posted November 7, 2018 TDC verified with a probe down the glowplug hole, which agrees with the timing mark on the crank pulley, and the slot in the flywheel. I'm beginning to wonder about the cam timing as well, I don't suppose there is any way to check it without removing the front cover is there? I know when they are supposed to open and shut is in the workshop manual, but i'm not sure I can reasonably measure that many degrees before/after TDC with any real accuracy. Ah well, timing cover off again it is! Nevermind eh 46 minutes ago, MR-HIPPO said: Probably unrelated, but I will throw it out there. I think I had a similar issue with an old ford transit diesel engine retrofit many years ago. IIRC it was caused by having the wrong banjo fitting in the Fuel return line. The incorrect banjo had a very small hole internally and was restricting the flow to return. Thanks for the thought, but I would hope this isn't the case as I have re-used the original fittings from this engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Yep whip it all off and check again, for the sake of a couple of gaskets and an hours slandering. Do double check to see if you have two flywheel slots first though - they are only a few degrees apart, but chances are the belt just needs refitting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 200tdi flywheel TDC use the NARROW slot, the other much wider slot is for the older TD engine. there is a photo in Defender forum somewhere that I added to a post a while ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 11 hours ago, Eightpot said: Yep whip it all off and check again, for the sake of a couple of gaskets and an hours slandering. 'Slandering' wtf?? 🤨 bloomin autocorrect 😆 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 I'm with the other chaps Matt, timing cover off and start from scratch. HTH Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat2495 Posted November 8, 2018 Author Share Posted November 8, 2018 Sounds like my weekend plans are sorted then! Be a bit embarrassing when it turns out I missed by a couple of teeth! I was so careful as well as I have never done a 200tdi belt before. 10 hours ago, Eightpot said: 'Slandering' wtf?? 🤨 bloomin autocorrect 😆 I don't know, I'll probably be slandering a couple of the design decisions before I've finished! 21 hours ago, western said: 200tdi flywheel TDC use the NARROW lot, the other much wider slot is for the older TD engine. there is a photo in Defender forum somewhere that I added to a post a while ago. The correct one is about 4-5mm I think? I know what you mean though, the other one is much wider. Thanks all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 You can run the engine briefly with the front cover off to test before you reassemble everything (make sure you take the timing pin back out!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat2495 Posted November 8, 2018 Author Share Posted November 8, 2018 Oh good, that's worth knowing, I wasn't brave enough to try that last time, thought the fact that it was still on and engine stand probably didn't help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat2495 Posted November 11, 2018 Author Share Posted November 11, 2018 Well, good news and bad news! the good news is I did get the timing belt set up correctly, the bad news is I still don't know what is wrong. Is there a mechanism in the injector pump to adjust the advance for increasing engine speeds? I'm just thinking if it is timed correctly statically, it would then be retarded at 700RPM, and even further retarded at 1200RPM etc. which would explain why advancing it past 'correct' improved the idle, but it still wouldn't pick up any rev's cleanly. I think it may be time to take the injector pump of and send it away for testing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 If the pump was working ok before, and you're confident you have set the crank/cam/pump correctly when installing the timing belt, I would be starting to wonder if the problem lies elsewhere. Have you Got a compression tester? It's not unheard of to have a bit of something find it's way under the head gasket or some water/oil in the head bolt holes stopping the head clamping down properly for example. Personally, I would be investigating that first before spending on a recon fip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Did you have the 3 small hex bolts slackened while setting the timing, as the manual instructs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat2495 Posted November 12, 2018 Author Share Posted November 12, 2018 5 hours ago, Eightpot said: If the pump was working ok before, and you're confident you have set the crank/cam/pump correctly when installing the timing belt, I would be starting to wonder if the problem lies elsewhere. Have you Got a compression tester? It's not unheard of to have a bit of something find it's way under the head gasket or some water/oil in the head bolt holes stopping the head clamping down properly for example. Personally, I would be investigating that first before spending on a recon fip. The pump was working okay when the engine was laid up, which I believe was circa 5-10 years ago. And I use the term laid up loosely.. suffice to say it wasn't in the best condition when I got it Compression checks out, no more than 20PSI difference between cylinders, and that was with the battery starting to go towards the end. All around the 370-400 PSI mark 30 minutes ago, western said: Did you have the 3 small hex bolts slackened while setting the timing, as the manual instructs. Yes, to be sure I re-printed the manual and followed it to the letter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Let's see a picture of the timing marks. It is not that uncommon for people to do it wrong as the instructions are a bit confusing. You need to step back and take a fresh look or have someone take a fresh look. It is most likely that you have done something wrong and can't see the forest for the trees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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