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skirky dave

Specialised 2.5 N/A Glow Plug Advice Needed Please.

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Hi guys, got a bit of a problem with the 2.5 n/a diesel engine.

For quite some time, my engine has always made this bottom end knocking sound. Tried reading as much advice on here as i can but couldn't seem to find a cure, so to speak.

Then by pure chance, i was watching this Geordie machanic who lives in Canada,  (YOU TUBE Britannica Restorations LTD ) his name is MIKE, ...Workshop Life looking for leaking glow plugs!!.

He was working on a 300TDI but the outcome is the same.

He sprayed soapy water over the glow plugs to see if there was a problem,...and there was.

I decided to give this idea a try as my glow plugs needed changing anyway.

What a shock i got !!!.........NO 3 glow plug blowing bubbles all over the place. Convincing myself that my new NGK Glow plugs would sort out the problem, i changed them this afternoon.

Still bubbles but not as bad as before. Engine is much quieter but the bubbles still bother me somewhat. Engine pulls very very well.

It's now winter and i didn't really feel like pulling the head off again but was just wondering if you guys had any ideas what to do.

All advice welcome

Cheers

Dave.

 

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Interested in his as I too have a 2.5 n/a, ..... hope you don’t mind me following. 

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Hi DC, i here it's getting a bit nippy up there, stunning scenery though. No i don't mind you following at all, The more the merrier mate.

Dave.

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Thanks @skirky dave it’s not too bad. Just hovering around 0c the last few nights. Log burner on bud 😊🔥 I think a set of glow plugs couldn’t do any harm with mine either. Wouldn’t know the last time they were changed. I’ve had the truck 2.5 years now..... 👍 look forward to the replies. 

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Yeah i'm hoping Les or Nick (snagger) sees this and comes up with something positive, they usually do and their advice has been bang on in the past.

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Can you post a video of the sound made on your engine?

I don't understand how glowplugs could be responsible for knocking noises from the bottom end. Glowplugs or injectors that are not properly sealed usually cause a ticking or chuffing noise. Did you use a little copper grease on the glow plug threads and tighten with a torque wrench?

Also did you take the head off? If you so, did you replace the domed washers in the head where the injector nozzels sit? This can cause noise if not sealed properly as can a leaking exhaust manifold gasket.

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Hi Monkie,

It clattered like someone knocking small hammers. The other year, i changed the timing cover from a 15J  Sherpa engine and replaced it with the 19J from the 2.5T engine because i was fed up with the timing belt breaking. This has turned it into a 12J. I did, however . take the advice and tips from other members here and everything went brilliant.

I've spoken to a Diesel specialist today and he's convinced that the so called knocking of hammers is to do with the diesel pump setting.

When i timed the fuel pump, as explained to me on here, i used a small steel rod through the fuel pump timing hole on the side of the pump. This , i thought, slid into position when i turned the pump fractionally. but it would appear to be the wrong method. All the dots and arrows lined up perfectly HOWEVER...A FEW WEEKS AGO...My son bought the timing kit pins for me and today i tried to get the pin to fit into the pump side.No matter how far i Advanced or Retarded the pump on it's 3 bolts would the pin drop onto the  shaft on the pump side.

What i was doing with my home made pin was.. letting the pin slide over or under the timing pump shaft, and thinking to myself i had the pin bang on. Huge mistake.

I shall wait until the new year before i strip the front off ......yet again !!!.

As the Diesel specialist said...it can't be that far off. it's just a case of taking off the timing belt and turning the pump by hand until the proper pin drops in,...that along with every other dot and arrow matching up.

As for the glow plug problem......since i changed the plugs yesterday, she does sound quieter and smoother and pulls like a train but there are still bubbles coming from the no 3 glow plug. But no where as much as before. 

Looks like the heads coming off ...again, and having the glow plug apperture, reamed / helicoiled.

Wish i knew how to post a video. But at least it doesn't sound as bad as the 300TDI on the YOU TUBE link above with Mike.

Next summer...i shall be checking the bearings and really taking my time with this engine.

Sorry for the late reply mate,

Cheers

Dave.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I shall also check the exhaust gasket , weather permitting, over the next week and order a new gasket. I shall remove the injectors whilst i'm at it and get those re checked along with the new copper washers and steel domed seats / seals.  I guess it's all a question of elimination. Back end of the year again....typical!!!.

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Okay, I see how the injection timing being off could account for knocking noises. I think that you might need to revisit the timing belt situation and see just how far out the injection pump, in the long run the only way way to truely get it timed correctly would be to take the timing cover off so you can see everything and replace the belt if necessary. I find the tool that screws into the side of the injection pump really useful once the crank is locked in position so you know all is set correctly.

In terms of the leaking glow plug, I think this is a bit of a red herring in the grand scheme of things - how much compression do you really think you might be loosing? I doubt it would be much, a compression test would put a figure to it. If it were me, I would try cleaning the threads up first, then using a smear of copper grease when you put the glow plugs back in torqued to the figure by the book... but I would look at the timing issue first before taking the head off or looking at the bottom end - it could save you a lot of work in the long run.

Hope this helps you.

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Monkie.....Many many thanks for getting back to me, appreciate it.

First off is the removal of the timing case cover......not an awful lot of space in which to see things without taking off the radiator, which also means disconnecting the wiring etc etc. 

That way i can see everything and have loads of space to work in. I remember from last time.  IF ONLY i had realised my mistake with the timing pin situation beforehand, i wouldn't be having to do this all over again!!! Oh well, we all live and learn.

As for the glow plug situation....Mmmm,....I might have found a bit of a problem there.  There's a HGV garage just down the road from me and i've got to know a couple of the mechanics there. I took the landy for them to have a listen to yesterday and try to get an overall opinion. They looked at the glow plug i had removed from no3 and straight away they said.,"  First 3 threads was almost worn away " So..maybe i've crossed threaded it or it hadn't been pressure tested correctly last year when i had the head skimmed and pressure tested with new Hot Spots replaced due to one of them being cracked,..i don't know. For all i know, there may have been a problem with glow plug no3 for donkey's years, but i would have thought the garage would have picked up on that one last year when they pressure tested the head.

 By the way, i have always used copper grease when fitting glow plugs and also been very careful when replacing them which is why it's a bit of a mystery to me why one of them is leaking ( blowing bubbles of soapy water ). I've also torqued them up correctly as you quite rightly suggested. I don't like to over tighten them or the injectors...just in case.

The funny thing is, Once the old girl is warmed up, ( about 15-20 mins in this weather ) she quietens down by a huge degree and on a long run, returns 32 mpg , 25 urban, 20-22 stop start, stop start and idling which is what i would expect to be fair. At normal engine temperature she flies ( well kind off for a 2.5 N/A Diesel ) faster than my mates anyway and his runs as sweet as a nut!. 

It's just that first thing in the morning after a really cold night, she clatters so loud and smokes ( grey/blue ) and then smooths out.. eventually.

Think it might need honing out and a new set of rings,.....Now there's a job that scares me to death!!! i kid you not. Plus the bottom end bearings ( shivers down the spine )

I shall try and make a video of it, this morning, and then ask my son to give me a hand uploading it to this site, but my phone is utter rubbish with very little storage space.It can't even update itself, IT'S A HUAWEI.£60 POUND JOB. Not like my son's £££££ all singing and dancing, bells and whistles etc etc. Can't afford one of them!!.

My problem with that , is, he's working away down London.

Anyway,,,,,sorry for the ramble and thanks for getting back to me mate.

Dave.

 

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I agree, remove the radiator to give yourself as much room as possible so you can see what you are doing clearly.

A stripped thread is annoying, particulalry given the money you have put into that head to have it checked and skimmed. The smoke and clatter from cold is quite normal, that big iron block and head full of cold water takes alot of heat out of the combustion for the first few minutes from initial start up, hence the smoke and noise.

I would do a compression test before you start to worry about rings. As for the bottom end, you can quite easily on a dry morning drain the oil, remove the sump and take the big end caps off one by one just to get an idea of the degree of wear/scoring on the bearings, and even check the end float of the crank.

If you do decide to sort the rings and bearing out - I would take the whole engine out and refurb the lot while you are there. I did my 19J a few years ago. Here is the link to my rebuild thread.

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Eh up again Monkie,

Ok, so yesterday late afternoon turned out to be very interesting to say the least. I had a visit from one of the HGV  mechanics (Paul) .By. all accounts they had been chatting amongst themselves after i had gone. The garage is only 2 minutes down the road from me, and he said he might pop round if he had chance. After listening to the engine before,.. he came up with an idea. To move the fuel pump (Advance it ) whilst the engine is STONE COLD. He slackened off all the injector pipes etc and advanced the pump by approx 2mm. He then said.." give that a go but give it plenty of glow plugs first". This i did, and she started up superb, there is still a little clatter as you quite rightly said there would be,  BUT, she hardly smokes at all now. I took the motor for a spin around the area  for approximately 30 minutes . He also advised me to let the motor warm up just above idle with the hand throttle for 5 minutes.Just to warm the  bores and oil. He came along for the ride just to listen to it.  His opinion was that he thought the engine pulled very very well indeed to say it's a n/a diesel and given it's age. Once warmed up, it's now like driving an almost new engine. The difference is amazing. I told him i couldn't get the timing pump pin to locate and he said to me, "It doesn't sound far off to be honest, it certainly wouldn't give me cause for concern, it's possibly a natts off but that's all.

As for the compression test, i shall see if i can borrow one, probably from Paul whilst i'm at the garage and then write them down and give you the results, but in his opinion she sounds very very sweet. And all this for a couple of mm on the pump. By all accounts he always sets the timing pumps from stone cold to give himself a clear indication as to how much movement the pump requires. I suppose that comes with years of experience,  he's very much old school !!. 

He also said the glow plug problem is also a little unfortunate but nothing too difficult to put right and should i need a hand, he's only down the road. Apart from which, they have all the tackle.....for a couple of 4 packs and a bacon buttie.

Now to see how the motor performs over the next few days.....i shall keep you informed

Now to have a good read at your post....that looks very interesting !!!. Possibly a little over my head to be honest.

Dave.

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Good to hear that adjusting the pump solved the porblems. Timing issues by only a small amount can have profound effects. I once cocked up the pump timing on a 300Tdi and resulted in clouds of unburnt diesel, and that was only a little bit out.

In terms of my rebuild thread. It is really quite straight forward, they are basic engines. You just have to be methodical and make carful inspection and measurements as you go, deciding what is scrap and what is servicable.

 

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Regarding the glowplug-threads issue: I'd run a tap down the hole in the cylinder-head to clean up any damage to the threads (put a dob of grease on the tap to pick up any swarf it generates) then whack in a new glowplug and see what happens.

[Must admit, I never liked old style clockwork Diesels: life's much easier when you can hook up a laptop to the ECU to see cylinder-balance/timing on the screen and then dial-in new values as needed]

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Monkie

Yeah, i must admit i feel a little unsettled with myself not sorting this problem out sooner. I followed everything advised to me by Snagger and Les when i converted the front of the 15J Sherpa to a 12J  and to have this nagging problem for such a long time is slightly embarrassing. To have Paul pop over and just DO IT in 5 minutes flat, start to finish, left me wondering how the hell did you do that so quick.  To think just a couple of mm could make so much difference is incredible.

Still reading your post, by the way,  very interesting.

 

Tanuki

I kind of get where your coming from in that a certain set of circumstances with a given problem can be realised and solved with  minimum effort in the digital and electronic world we live in these days but....what happens if your ECU packs up 😂.   I bet they're not cheap  £££. 

For people who know exactly what there doing with these machines/ engines it must be fantastic, as you say "just plug it in and voila, set new values and your away" . However....to have a single light come the dashboard which has you reading the literature in the cars manual WHICH then states MUST VISIT YOUR NEAREST DEALER, where we will be glad to charge you a small fortune...with a free smile, i have to say worries me.

As a young lad, ( a long time ago now ) i have fond memories of my Dad and a couple of our neighbours with the car bonnet up every now and again, setting the plugs and points then starting the car up and away they went. everything running sweet and sorted out for work the next week.  I don't see that anymore....kind of sad in a way.

Of course, now, the government want to do away with Petrol and Diesel cars and have us all running around in some electrical contraption which will require specialised knowledge to sort out. Mmmm i think i'll stick to my old world Diesel....just for the time being.

Cheers 

Dave

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Monkie.....Phil,

That was quite a write up you did with the 19 J engine. You should feel very proud of getting that engine sorted and back on the road. I suppose it also helps with the fact that you have a garage, to get it stripped down and out of the weather.That way you can take your time and are  not at the mercy of the elements. I, on the other hand , have to do all my work on the driveway, which is a real pain in the backside, especially at this time of the year.

When you had the crankshaft re ground, how much did you know had to be taken off, and how did you know what size bearings to order for it ???. You obviously knew what you were  doing Phil.

A mate of mine put the 200 TDI into his series 2 swb and went through 2 gearboxes to my knowledge. I have heard some people  say there isn't a problem as long as you drive it very carefully. Its that bit ( drive it very carefully ) that always worried me. That's the reason i've stuck with my 2.5 N/A.

Anyway Phil, that was a very interesting read, good on ya mate.

Dave.

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Thank you. In terms of the crankshaft, when I took it off it looked quite scored. Like pistons and rings where you have a few options of size (standard or oversize) the big end and main bearings also have a choice of size (standard, 10 thou under or 20 thou under).

The pictures don't really show how bad it looked in real life. I took it to my local engineering shop and asked them how bad it was. I left it with them and they told me they took it down by 10 thou undersize to remove the scoring which wasn't as bad I feared. As the new diameter was 10 thou undersize, I got bearings to match the new size.

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Ohhh now i get it, so...the machine shop take off the required amount  and then either supply you with the correct bearings or just leave you to order them yourself to fit.

I must admit though, for someone who's never done this kind of strip down before, i would still find this a little daunting..  to say the least !.

 

I did notice today that when accelerating hard uphill, i'm  putting out a little black smoke, not that i'm causing a high street blackout but i can see it from time to time in my wing mirror i take this is normal but from what i've read, it can also be unburnt fuel or from overfueling.  Having said that, i have seen 200 -300 TDI's throw out more than me when booting it.

I was just wondering, if. to   (A) Leave the pump alone or (B ) Retard it a little, what do you think Phil.

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I don't think you want to adjust the timing if its going well - but you may be able to cut down the maximim fuel a touch - some pumps have an external maximum fuel adjustment.

Alternatively are you sure there are no air leaks or restrictions between the turbo and the engine?

 

 

 

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Hold on a minute, I think we are running away here: we are talking about a naturally aspirated diesel in your LR, not a turbo diesel?

Personally I would leave the pump well alone now the timing issue is solved. Make sure you keep it well serviced in terms of oil and filter (oil, air and fuel) and ensure the valve clearences are checked form time to time when cold, then just enjoy your LR. Some smoke from an old diesel is normal - some would say part of its charm!

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Secondjeremy .

Mine's the bog standard 2.5 n/a NON turbo

 

Phil ...right you are. With the Sherpa engine i managed to retain the pan air filter on top of the manifold. I use the K& N air filter in place of the round paper  filter. I have two filters, One is cleaned , dryed and put away until it's ready for use  .I change them over 4 times, during the year, at the same time i change the oil, filters, diesel filter. In fact it's due a full service this next week plus an overall service of Diff oils / gearbox etc etc. Just watch this space...it's bound to rain,...again !!.

Paul ...the HGV  mechanic, told me...that a good indication to when the engine oil need changing is when you start to hear it making a slight clattering noise. This is also something i was told about many years ago when i first bought the motor, so i've always tried to change it  4 times a year.

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Hi Dave,

Been off the forum a while due to a lost password and lack of time.  Sorry to be late answering you!

Very advanced timing makes the engine harsh and produces lots of dark grey or black smoke.  It also makes the engine harder to start.  Retarded injection causes power loss and white smoke, but makes the engine very smooth and easy to start.  Getting the timing just right should give just a little black smoke and harshness at full throttle but easy starting and a relatively smooth idle - it'll clatter, but the knock should be gone.  The performance difference can be amazing.

The glow plug gas leak probably started very small but suffered gas erosion - the threads have likely been partly burnt away by hot exhaust gases.  At worst, the head may need replacement, but I think it's very likely it can be repaired with a helicoil and light machining of the sealing face.  It'll have to come off to be done right, but at least you're practiced in doing that now and all the fixings are new enough not to be seized!

 

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Snagger......Nick,

Eh up mate very, nice to hear from you again, hope your well......and warm out there.

This is just typical for me,..first chance of a problem and the weather changes. No garage, everything wet / cold. Oh well, soldier on.

Thanks for the info on advanced and retarded timing and related symptoms. That answers a few questions. 

The HGV guys down the road have been pulled out with it over the last few weeks and i don't want to pester too much.

I was told it was off, but not by much and that kind of left me in a quandary , leave it alone for the time being until  i've done a full compression test, dry-wet.

I shall pop back down when their work load has eased somewhat.

One symptom i had , was the engine used to chuff every couple of revolutions, like a cough but once warmed up after a couple of miles ot seemed to stop doing it.

Monkie...Phil, was also of the impression that it may be best to leave it alone for the moment anyway. It can't be that far off,. surely ?.

I do believe though, that, come the warmer weather, the head will have to come off...again. Have a propper look at the glow plug seat maybe helicoil job.

Get the fuel pump checked out £££, although she's now returning 25 /30 mpg once the engines at normal temp.

My son was following me in his car the other day and when i came to a hill, he said the smoke was a small amount of black like soot to start off with followed by a  dark ish coloured grey exhaust fume, something like a dark rain cloud if you like but certainly not enough to blind people. The motor also seems alot smoother once it's warmed up. It's really really strange this one. Almost temperamental if you will. Very odd. But still pulls well

Nice to hear from you again Nick

Dave.

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I always found any smoke to be worse cold, much clearing when warm.  But in your case, it may also be because the glow plug is sealing up better when the engine is hot, and that would also explain why the chuff only happens cold.

You can make a small adjustment of the pump without any risk.  Given that you still get a little black smoke, I'd retard it by 0.5mm on the casing flange and see what happens.  You can always turn it back, especially if you scribe a datum mark where it is now.

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I second scribing a datum mark before you move the pump so you have a reference to move it back to where you started from if all goes wrong.

Just to be clear: If Dave slackens the 3 nuts holding the pump to the time case and moves the pump CLOCKWISE (from the perspective of looking at the back of the timecase towards the front of the vehicle) this will retard the injection timing - is that the correct way round?

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