Jump to content
skirky dave

Specialised 2.5 N/A Glow Plug Advice Needed Please.

Recommended Posts

Turning the pump casing the same way as the fan rotates retards the timing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I had got it the wrong way round - Dave must turn the pump casing ANTI CLOCKWISE to retard the timing.

I would only make very small adjustments at any one time so you don't over do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep gotch ya.

I will make a datum mark then as you say, if it goes a little pear shape i can move it back. Half a mill at a time. Not much space for error though messing with 0.5mm. Hard to believe that tiny amount can make all the difference. I may just have a look at this tomorrow before the rain comes and let you know my findings.

Cheers, Nick / Phil.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/27/2018 at 10:08 PM, monkie said:

So I had got it the wrong way round - Dave must turn the pump casing ANTI CLOCKWISE to retard the timing.

I would only make very small adjustments at any one time so you don't over do it.

To advance the timing, you need to advance the innards of the pump, which is done by retarding the casing.  It does seem counter intuitive unless you can picture the motion of the internals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nick......ok, so the rain stopped so i thought i would spend an hour on the timing, ....or so i thought !!!!!.  I read over your advice regarding retarding and advancing of the pump with all the symptoms of problems associated with diesel smoking and starting of the engine, especially from cold. My god,  what a day !!!! Yes, a DAY!. I popped into the HGV yard intermittently just to let them have a listen. They stood there and smiled at me. Your getting there,..they said.  Just keep at it......I lost count as to how many times i laid on my back to loosen the 13mm nut under the pump, and the lower injector nut closest to the engine. Plus all the other nuts and injectors, just to move the pump a FRACTION of an inch, first one way then the other in my attempt to find the sweet spot. Then take it for a drive up hill and down dale keeping an eye on the wing mirror for pluthers of smoke under load.  Phil,  at the garage said that you were correct in everything you said but, because neither Phil or i could actually find the timing pin location hole on the fuel pump shaft with the pins we were using, he seems to think that 

(A) There might be some wear to the pump as the timing pin ( in his opinion ) is only a natts off .

(B) Leave as is for the time being until i change the timing belt or until summer when i could get the diesel specialist to overhaul the pump, OR that the pump could be slightly out of wack in which case it could be corrected with minimum effort once the front is off and the whole lot can be properly looked at. ( That was his advice ).

He popped round after work and followed me as i drove around my test drive area , as i call it. Some 2.5 miles up hills, on the flat etc etc. He said that going up hills under load, all he could see in his headlights going up hill,was,  light grey smoke, which as he put it...may make your brand new Merc, Jag and Bently driving tree huggers pull back a hundred yards but apart from that, i wasn't causing a problem for other road users or PC plod good cause for concern to pull me up. Having said that,...it all depends on the pc, after all he can pull you up for anything if he so wishes, within reason.

If anything.i would say the pump requires retarding a TINY amount and i mean a fraction, that's all. 

He also said...You've got to remember, it's an old engine from 1986 and you don't know the history as to the quality of the fuel that's been put through it or the mileage covered before i got the engine. which is fair enough i suppose. The problem with having the pump stripped , checked, new seals, re calibrated etc etc is cost £££.

The other advice he gave was, to start the engine from stone COLD, look listen, drive and observe. If not good then let the engine go totally cold again, then..adjust the pump, look listen drive etc. Until it starts as it should ,and then drives smooth after warming up. He said ,..these old Diesel lumps can be a bit lumpy on a freezing cold morning but once up to temp,their a good engine, even newer Turbo Diesels be it Landy's or HGV'S can pour out black smoke when under load, but they can be a Royal pain to sort out at times.

As it happens, it's raining here ... again, but....i'm NOT finished yet!! I think i may be able to get it a little bit better, although it's much better than before. Much much smoother.

Oh well....more scrambling about on the concrete, i'm determined if nothing else.

Cheers Nick,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All sounds like good advice.

I got a second hand injection pump with zero mileage from a friend who bought it as part of a scrapped 300Tdi from an Army "Wolf".  The engine was binned when it refused to run with the new pump (the MoD work to budgets, and if a vehicle has its budget used up, it gets cast, even if it just needs a 5 pound part to be like new after thousands spent on it).  I couldn't get my engine to run either, though it had with the old pump.  It transpired the pump had been assembled incorrectly with the sprocket flange set well off the correct position, so the timing pins were over 100deg out.  So, the timing pin system on yours could be misleading too, and dynamic timing is what will get the best result.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Nick,

It's been raining here almost all week.Driving rain at times, what with the gale force winds so it's been somewhat difficult to have a look at the timing again. However, i feel i'm almost there, although as you say, it may need looking at properly when the weather improves . I have read SO MANY posts and information regarding this kind of problem and as you say, dynamic timing might be the way to go, although i feel that might be a little above my head to be honest. I would need to observe that practice with my own eyes as those bits of kit are not exactly cheap,  BUT i agree are very helpful tools, even though it may get used every blue moon. I think it was a Land Rover Toolbox video on You Tube where i watched that. Very clever but a little daunting when you've never done it.

Starting from stone cold, the engine gives the following results,....Starts straight away after 15 seconds of glow plugs,.blip accelerator to put out the battery charge light, then observe the exhaust, which blows  ( pluthers ) out light grey/white ish / light blue ish smoke. Then increase revs for 10 seconds which then stops the smoke, it clears up,  Then..slightly increase revs on the hand throttle for 5 mins until the engine revs suddenly increase ( As though it's waking up) as the engine is getting warmer. Then return the hand throttle to it's normal position and Idle...no smoking  but the very odd chuff of smoke every now and again but not as bad as before.  Leave engine to idle for further 5 mins and drive off. Little clattery whilst engine is still cold but quietens down after 2.5 mile.

Once engine temp is 75% towards  the ( N  ) ,  the engine becomes much smoother / quieter.

Once at normal temp and warm air is blowing through the heater,  it quietens down a further 80% compared to the cold clatter from cold.

Does this seem the correct procedure to you Nick.

My eldest son has just given me his old iphone , ( very generous of him as mine was buggered ) so i shall make a video of the procedure and see if i can post it.... That should be fun as i don't understand these things at the best of times.

Lucky you for getting hold of an almost brand new Diesel pump...those are not cheap!!. Shame about the Land Rover Wolf though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It isn't behaving the way my 12J did.  I could start that in sub-zero without the glow plugs and it didn't smoke unless pulling hard.  My Tdi, on the other hand, is smoking at idle and on the overrun, pale grey or blue, and using a lot of oil even though it was completely rebuilt with a rebore and new pistons.  I'm pretty sure its the rings and bores, given the head has been redone since then and it got a turbo rebuild and then a new turbo (rebuild was an appalling company in Reading, so I replaced it with a Turbo Technics unit).  I think it never ran in properly, and you may have the same, but if you're using old injection parts, that could be as much the problem.  My injectors and pump were rebuilt at the same time as the engine by "DieselBob Tuning", who seems to have done a good job, but since you have tame and seemingly good guys already on hand, you'd probably be best working with them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Snagger said:

It isn't behaving the way my 12J did.  I could start that in sub-zero without the glow plugs and it didn't smoke unless pulling hard.  My Tdi, on the other hand, is smoking at idle and on the overrun, pale grey or blue, and using a lot of oil even though it was completely rebuilt with a rebore and new pistons.  I'm pretty sure its the rings and bores, given the head has been redone since then and it got a turbo rebuild and then a new turbo (rebuild was an appalling company in Reading, so I replaced it with a Turbo Technics unit).  I think it never ran in properly, and you may have the same, but if you're using old injection parts, that could be as much the problem.  My injectors and pump were rebuilt at the same time as the engine by "DieselBob Tuning", who seems to have done a good job, but since you have tame and seemingly good guys already on hand, you'd probably be best working with them.

(Apologies to Dave for hijacking his thread somewhat, but it has got me thinking). Contrary to the above, my experience with 12J, 19J and other indirect injection diesels I've had in cars over the years like the Ford 1.8TD and the 5 cyclinder Merc engine has been that they all need a bit of pre-heat otherwise they are a sod to start in winter - the Ford refusing once when the glow plugs failed until I sorted the issue (blown fuse). My 300 Tdi on the otherhand hardly ever needed any pre-heat no matter how low the temperature outside was (we do get the occasional very cold morning in the UK).

I've always understood/accepted that one of the advantages of direct injection diesel engines over indirect is better cold starting performance in sub zero temperatures, so I have always accepted the longer pre-heat on these older indirect injection engines as "just the way it is".

I rebuilt my 19J engine (that currently sits in my 110) a couple of years ago. On a frosty morning it will fire up on the first or second revolution of the starter motor but this is after 10-15 seconds of pre-heat which is a must. I know the compression is excellent, injectors were replaced and the injection timing is spot on (no smoke either black or white and smooth running), but this thread has got me thinking that because I did nothing with the fuel injection pump - could it be a possibility that the advance mechansim on the injection pump isn't working as it should be - how can this be checked? I would love to be able to claim that my 19J fires up from cold with little/no pre heat as above. Again, I have always understood that advancing the injection timing improves cold starting but results in smoke and knock.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nick...

I had the injectors checked and the guys at sheaf diesel said they were spot on.

The HGV guys down the road from me are really pulled out with it at the moment. As they say, too many lorries, too many problems and not enough hours in the day to get them sorted, yet management want them on the road. There working whilst eating...go figure. Have to say they are a good bunch though. They also said to me " Your friend on the internet forum seems to know his stuff, which makes a change" so..there's a feather in your cap.

Monkie.....no problems mate, hijack away, the more the merrier.

Some interesting points there mate. Like you, i have to give the old girl 10-15 seconds on the glow plugs and on freezing cold days about  20+.

I no longer have the smoke problem when accelerating hard up hill, that seems to be alot better now. Just white and blue ish from starting from stone cold in the morning and a little rattle with a slight knock,   I do feel as though i'm getting there ... SLOWLY. However ...it's SO temperamental trying to get it bang on, so there's no knock or should i say much less of a knock first thing. I find myself coming back to the pc to read Nicks part over again regarding advanced and retarded timing.

God, don't you just love em.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, monkie said:

- could it be a possibility that the advance mechansim on the injection pump isn't working as it should be - how can this be checked? I would love to be able to claim that my 19J fires up from cold with little/no pre heat as above. Again, I have always understood that advancing the injection timing improves cold starting but results in smoke and knock.

 

Retarding helps start up, at the cost of a bit of performance.  It also makes the engine run smoother and quieter.  You don't need much adjustment to make a world of difference to the starting behaviour, and not enough to significantly affect running and performance.  It makes sense when you consider the pistons are moving slower than when running, so the pump is trying to inject too soon.  But a sticky advance mechanism in the pump would have issues at all sorts of speeds, including on start, as the timing would only be correct at very specific rpm and throttle conditions, usually being wrong.  As I said, my 12J would start instantly even after being stood days in freezing conditions without the use of the plugs - I quite often forgot to use them because i simply didn't need to, though I'm sure they helped the performance and smoothness until the engine started warming up.  I can't imagine my engine being special - I used AE pistons and rings, new injectors and the pump that had been on the engine when I bought it.  But as I have said on other discussions, I think getting the fuel system absolutely airtight to prevent the need for purging on each start is key.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, skirky dave said:

Nick...

The HGV guys down the road from me are really pulled out with it at the moment. As they say, too many lorries, too many problems and not enough hours in the day to get them sorted, yet management want them on the road. There working whilst eating...go figure. Have to say they are a good bunch though. They also said to me " Your friend on the internet forum seems to know his stuff, which makes a change" so..there's a feather in your cap.

 

Ha!  I'll take that! 😊

If you're happy with them, try to book the job with them.  It sounds like you're building a relationship with them that will result in some good service.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am but almost everything has to go through the books and that's alot of pennies. Every time i drive in the yard the main secretary comes out rubbing her hands. She tries to make a joke of it when she says  "We'll soon be charging you by the hour for all this advice you know these are trained mechanics and we are busy" The lads just say.."Come back after 4 Dave when Cruella's gone. Which is fair enough, it is a business afterall but i'm also sure she wouldn't mind a box of chocolates at xmas as a way of saying "Thank You"  The lads didn't mind when i bought them a beer a few months ago.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

We use cookies to ensure you get the best experience. By using our website you agree to our Cookie Policy