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greenmeanie

Series steering column scroll hardness

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I have an existing power steering conversion on a Series IIA that used the original steering column with the scroll removed and a spline end welded in place instead to mount to a UJ. This was made professionally and the welds inspected so I know it is a good part and it worked well and was perfectly legal but I have now moved countries and welded modifications on steering components are verboten. I now need to replace the column and can achieve what I need by machining down the scroll end to what I need.

This gets me to my question. I know the scroll is hardened to prevent wear in the ball races for the Burmann nut. This means it is difficult to turn the part down to the right diameter. Dose anyone know if the scroll piece is through hardened meaning it will need to be ground or is the hardening only to a set depth meaning I can grind it away leaving 'softer' metal underneath that is easier to work with? I can deal with both situations but I prefer to know what I am dealing with when I talk to the machine shop.

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I used a defender collumm to operate the powersteering

No welding

 

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This is not an option as it does not mate with the rest of the system which is based on US parts on a Scout II PS box. I also want to keep the original steering wheel and horn connection etc which is part of a IIA column. The aim is to replace the existing part which can be achieved by machining down an existing column so avoiding welding

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Aren't the original columns welded by the factory? I looked into this once, to research doing similar.

I don't know the answer, but suspect it's a forged part welded to the column, so probably hardened through.

 

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"This is not an option as it does not mate with the rest of the system which is based on US parts on a Scout II PS box."

Ehmmm....

2018-12-01 = IH Scout in de Hybrid.jpg

This is what we used when we turbo charged the 2.25 ltr. diesel (yes - not a typo) in 1984  - so don't really understand why it wouldn't work.. Defender collum, Jaguar coll.collumm, IH Scout box and for 33 years with a Jaguar MK X powersteering pump - now with the 200 Tdi we use the pump from the engine.

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Its not jut the box but the linkage and UJ interfaces between the box and the column which is the concern. In the US the PS box is typically mounted on the outside of the chassis rail and you have the various holes cut in the wing panels, custom splash guards, column mount and a link bar that incorporates the collapsible section required for safety. Its all only metal so I can cut it all off and start again but from my current set of quotes I can achieve what I need cheaper by machining an inner column down.  

The question is based on having machine shop quotes. If the part is only surface hardened then I can save money by grinding this away roughly down to size and the shop will do the finishing on a lathe and milling machine which is relatively quick and cheap. If it is through hardened as I expect and somewhat confirmed above then it has to get ground down which is a longer an more expensive process. When dealing with machine shops it pays to know what you have, what you want and then we can discuss how to get there. 

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9 hours ago, Gazzar said:

Aren't the original columns welded by the factory? I looked into this once, to research doing similar.

I don't know the answer, but suspect it's a forged part welded to the column, so probably hardened through.

 

When it comes to regulation, passing inspection and insurance there is a distinction between an OEM welding the column where they have a formal design process leading to drawings, weld specifications, quality control and testing signed off by a chief engineer and backed up by corporate liability insurance and having a private entity or shop making a weld on a modification. Having discussed the matter with the vehicle inspection agency they will accept a machined part but a welded modification is completely forbidden.

 

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Consider yourself lucky that you have machine shop to talk to...

We have in France a realy hard time to get access to them in the 1st place.... They will not do anything, unless it concerns standard part swopping, agricultural stuff etc..

Liability in France is a huge issue....

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One of the real joys of living in the UK is the access to clever people who just love to build once-off stuff, usually for small money.  Having lived in other countries I really, really appreciate it.

I don't think most people fully appreciate how rare that it is.

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As a matter of curiosity, do you have photos of the old shaft (I'm after something similar....).

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That's what I had in mind for mine. Great to see it works. 

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I'm responding to both my own thoughts and Gazzar's comment  "One of the real joys of living in the UK is the access to clever people who just love to build once-off stuff, usually for small money".

I recalled that Rakeway have a good reputation for, as they say "bespoke and production automotive and race engineering projects.". I suggest you talk with them to see what options they feel are open to you. My thought is that they can do any machining work you require, and will understand the product you are starting with, in a way a Swiss machine shop may not.

Yes, I did notice there are no entries in the 'steering' section of their web site, but I still think you should contact them.

BTW, I suggest that a lot of the background you have included is unnecessary; briefly, you 'want a Series Land Rover inner steering column modified, to replace the worm with a splined end, this to be done by machining not cutting and welding, because Swiss regulations prohibit welded steering components, unless done by the vehicle manufacturer'.

OK?

Regards

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Yup, your last comment is about right. I had an old 101 column altered in the hope of getting a Double D end put on it. I walked in, told them what it is, what I wanted and said its for a go cart I'm building for my son. No problem. Tell them its modified steering on a truck and they won't touch it with a barge pole. The background here is for the Rover community here as I was expecting the common 'Use a Defender column' answer.

I might give your suggested company a call and see what they say. 

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20 hours ago, Gazzar said:

That's what I had in mind for mine. Great to see it works. 

The one thing I have changed since I took that photo years ago is that I swapped the drop arm arm for a Defender one (RTC6399 or RTC6398) which fits the Scout PS box spline. It has an integral ball joint so you also need the steering cross rod eye end (ANR2859 or ANR2858). One benefit is that it provides one end of a steering damper mount for those that need one.

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22 hours ago, Gazzar said:

One of the real joys of living in the UK is the access to clever people who just love to build once-off stuff, usually for small money.  Having lived in other countries I really, really appreciate it.

I don't think most people fully appreciate how rare that it is.

The US was great for that too as there is a culture of building and modifying vehicles so there were plenty of automotive machine shop who had the tools to grind shafts etc and very good pricing. Sadly for me this would have been an easy task had I got to it before moving out here.

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I was going to use a P38a box for mine.

 

Same principle, though.

 

G.

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Why not turn the weld down to make a smooth finish on a lathe and paint it to make it show OEM? If it is welded right it will not be an issue regarding strength.

And for sure there are many steering shafts which are OEM welded together.

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I think it's an issue that the Authorities or Insurers need to have a documentary trail indicating that it hasn't been welded.   This is Switzerland, I'm sure that everything has to be correct.

Even Series landrovers had to be redesigned for Swiss use - extra sound insulation and such like stuff.  Switzerland isn't a car country.

G.

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2 hours ago, Gazzar said:

I think it's an issue that the Authorities or Insurers need to have a documentary trail indicating that it hasn't been welded.   This is Switzerland, I'm sure that everything has to be correct.

Even Series landrovers had to be redesigned for Swiss use - extra sound insulation and such like stuff.  Switzerland isn't a car country.

G.

The above answer is correct. There are many ways to play the game to try and pass inspection but the bloke who evaluates the vehicle know his stuff and is no idiot when it comes to signing off. I have already done it once with a 101 with a disc brake conversion and had to go and hunt paperwork for that. While not declaring anything as formal as TUV certification the inspector was accommodating enough to accept a letter from Zeus explaining their history as an engineering firm and knowledge of brake modifications. I spent several hours in person and on the phone with the inspector and he was a decent bloke with a sense of humour and a passion for his work.

The sum total is that they will accept many modifications with a good explanation and say, pointing out that it is the same as a Defender for seats, when it comes to critical safety items it is all by the book and you have to jump through the hoops. Its not impossible but it does take time, money and determination. If you get caught trying to play silly buggers lying or trying to sneak stuff past him then the inspector will just shut you off and you will never to register the vehicle. Beyond that there is the usual caveats of such things being fine until they are not and you find your insurance void for illegal modification and the legal system here comes down on you like a tonne of bricks.

While it was most likely different for OEMs when you import a vehicle here the only sound check they run is for the exhaust system where you may not exceed a certain decibel level at a specified distance from the vehicle. If the 101 can pass then pretty much anything short of running zoomies should be good although stopping Harleys and issuing tickets for too loud exhausts is a favourite past time of cops here. 

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On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 10:46 AM, Arjan said:

"This is not an option as it does not mate with the rest of the system which is based on US parts on a Scout II PS box."

Ehmmm....

 

This is what we used when we turbo charged the 2.25 ltr. diesel (yes - not a typo) in 1984  - so don't really understand why it wouldn't work.. Defender collum, Jaguar coll.collumm, IH Scout box and for 33 years with a Jaguar MK X powersteering pump - now with the 200 Tdi we use the pump from the engine.

I suppose that I should take advantage of you knowledge here and ask if you know how many splines are on the UJ end of a Defender steering column? I currently have a 36 spline 19mm uj on to a 1" double D UJ. I would feel a bit dumb having a shaft machined if a Defender 48 spline inner column is a direct fit. I thought it was 48 spline but am happy to be proven wrong.

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I've one in the workshop, I think, I'll look tomorrow if I get in at a reasonable time.

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Great, thanks. I want to find an NTC9068 and see what the inner column looks like. I think I can find a UJ to adapt one to the ret of my system.

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I'm not sure what this one came out of - could be a 110 or a defender, don't know, was part of a bulkhead I bought to rebuild once.

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I don't think the UJ end has changed over time. I think it should be 19mm-48. The steering wheel spline is what changed with some being 19mm-48 and others 19mm-36. Damned if I'd know why they would bother making the difference as they seem to have used both types of splines on different body styles at the same time. In this case I know the Series steering wheel I have is 19mm-48 but it is the UJ end spline I want confirmed so I can chase down a matching joint that adapts from the Rover column to the Borgeson 1"DD collapsible link. 

With confirmation of the spline I'm pretty sure I can strip the inner column out of the NTC9068 and make it work with my existing system.

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