Braking problem, dont know how to continue

[SV110]

Hello gents and ladies, new to the forum but been with land rovers for about 5 years now (and other cars for longer)

I have encountered a problem and thought i would turn to the experts on the forum.

I have a Land Rover 110 -83 with a 200tdi and td5 defender axles. the problem i have is that the brakesforce (stopping the car) is almost non-excistent. up to 20kph it stops Sharp like you expect at any other speed when you touch the brakes it dropes 10-20 kph and then more or less has the same stopping Power as Enginebraking. it started about a year ago and has slowly become so bad that at this Point it iis to dangerous to drive.

What i have done so far:

Brake wise:

- changed the mastercylinder resuvior because it was cracking,

-tried to grease up the pistons to get them going again (rusty pistons) - didnt work

-Changed the calipers, me thinking it were the pistons that were stuck. - Didnt work

-Changed brakepads, - didnt work.

The pedal is very firm so doesnt feel like there is air in the system. when holding the brakepedal when starting the Engine it does go down a Little which should mean the servo is working.

that makes me Think it has something to do with the vacuumpump because around the same time as my brakeproblem started occuring i got a leak from my fuelinjectionpump which meant that you really had to push the Engine to go anywhere. with a reconditioned pump in Place it doesnt feel like i have the same amount of boost as Before the pump was changed. dont know if this is related but Always good to write down all the symptoms.

I have encounterd a fair few brake related problems but not this one so where and how to look next? done some research which resulte in looking for cracks in the brakeservo, wheelbearing vacuumpump etc.

Asking kindly for some ideas /Sven

 

 

 

 

[mmgemini]

Have you looked closly at the servo where the master cylinderfits for small cracks. You may need a torch to see the cracks

[Bowie69]

Does sound like a leaking servo in some way or another.

[Snagger]

It does sound like a servo issue, but did you fit the correct master cylinder to match the later all-disc system?  The drum rear master was quite different, and drums operate on much lower pressure than discs.

[SV110]

Thanks for the answers,

alright i will try and have Another look att the servo,

it was the last owner who put the td5 axles on so didnt do the operation myself but now that its mentioned i Think it has the same mastercylinder as my -89 with drums. Definatly having a look at that aswell

 

Thanks again will continue looking and let you know what was up, although could be a few weeks as at the moment its 400km away.

and if somebody else has Another idea feel free to fill in  

[Ed Poore]

Do you have any "knocking" when running? Notably under load?

I've been trying to track down a bit of a knock on mine and noticed yesterday in the rain that brakes were pants. Given I'm running mud terrains I can normally lock up the wheels on dry tarmac, yesterday I couldn't get it to happen at all. Thought, ah vacuum pump (shows how much I use the brakes).

Anyway when I got to work I pumped up the brakes with the engine off and the pedal really didn't move at all.

So if it sounds a bit more tractorish than normal it may be the same issue. Although pump is on order so we'll see whether it fixes my issue.

[miketomcat]

Ed it's a rotary pump on the 200tdi and they don't make any noise when knackered.

I've a similar problem on the 110, the brakes work but are a bit "wooden". The vac pump was changed (along with the engine) but it made no difference next on the list is the servo and master but I'm unlikely to do it anytime soon at the moment.

Mike

[Ed Poore]

1 minute ago, miketomcat said:

along with the engine

Bit extreme 

[miketomcat]

Just now, Ed Poore said:

Bit extreme 

You know me why change one part when you can create several more problems. 

Mike

[western]

On 12/6/2018 at 1:53 PM, Snagger said:

It does sound like a servo issue, but did you fit the correct master cylinder to match the later all-disc system?  The drum rear master was quite different, and drums operate on much lower pressure than discs.

I retained the drum brake master cylinder after coverting my '89110 to rear disc, also stayed with the origanl type servo & don't have any braking poblem with this set up,  as the others have said thelater 300Tdi bigger diameter servo is known for cracking around the master cylinder stud area, the smaller servo doesn't seem to suffer from that issue.

[Simon Smith]

21 hours ago, western said:

I retained the drum brake master cylinder after coverting my '89110 to rear disc, also stayed with the origanl type servo & don't have any braking poblem with this set up,  as the others have said thelater 300Tdi bigger diameter servo is known for cracking around the master cylinder stud area, the smaller servo doesn't seem to suffer from that issue.

On my previous 110 I did the same, all round discs work just fine on a drum master cylinder.

[SV110]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 9:34 AM, Ed Poore said:

Do you have any "knocking" when running? Notably under load?

I've been trying to track down a bit of a knock on mine and noticed yesterday in the rain that brakes were pants. Given I'm running mud terrains I can normally lock up the wheels on dry tarmac, yesterday I couldn't get it to happen at all. Thought, ah vacuum pump (shows how much I use the brakes).

Anyway when I got to work I pumped up the brakes with the engine off and the pedal really didn't move at all.

So if it sounds a bit more tractorish than normal it may be the same issue. Although pump is on order so we'll see whether it fixes my issue.

I do have a slight knocking but i think that i from the engine as knocking speeds up at the same speed as the revs. since i put my reconditioned injectionpump in it is running much quieter then Before only thing making a lot of noise now are the tires

but please let me know if your new pump helped, i do have a spare Engine so i might order some gaskets and swap them just for the sake of it and eliminating one part.

[SV110]

6 hours ago, Simon Smith said:

On my previous 110 I did the same, all round discs work just fine on a drum master cylinder.

What i can remeber when i bought the care it worked just fine, or as good as land rover brakes are  It can´t hurt to check just incase  

I havent been able to drive it that much during the last 12 months so have a hard time comparing. although they were not as bad as they are at the moment. guess i will have to take a test drive in my dads 110 to make a fair judgement

[Snagger]

Land Rover brakes are all good if correctly maintained.  It is a myth that their steering and braking are vague, heavy or sloppy as standard.

[Gazzar]

But they do end up sub optimal a lot quicker than other marques.

[Ed Poore]

21 minutes ago, Gazzar said:

But they do end up sub optimal a lot quicker than other marques.

Tell me about it - I seem to have a never ending battle with my drop arm, it's basically being replaced every year just before the MOT now. Gone from being a **** to get off to working loose over time despite having the correct nuts and locking washers (although the current ones are carp). Got a new steering box I'm refurbishing and probably going to change to a Disco drop arm instead.

[SV110]

Alright , got my dad to do some tests for me, as it at there house, the results are:

When pumping the pedal Before start and then starting it sinks just slightly and really slowly.

When pumping up the pedal and then releasing the vacuumhose to the servo, no hissing sound or air coming in or out.

no craks on the servo

And last but not least when putting his thumb on the hose with the Engine running there was no sucktion he said it was more blowing .

 

To me it now Points to the vacuum pump not working correctly right? or should i try anything else before i rest my case. As mentioned earlier i have a spare Engine so will order some gaskets and switch and have a go  this will probebly be during the christmas

[SV110]

8 hours ago, Snagger said:

Land Rover brakes are all good if correctly maintained.  It is a myth that their steering and braking are vague, heavy or sloppy as standard.

I do agree and I am quite happy with how mine drives (when its not broken) but compared to what i drive at work Land Rover are not the best in class

[Ed Poore]

9 hours ago, SV110 said:

I do agree and I am quite happy with how mine drives (when its not broken) but compared to what i drive at work Land Rover are not the best in class

At the risk of going off topic - what do you consider best in class? You mention Land Rover but from having owned a 3.6TDV8 L322 I'd have thought that's pretty much as best in class as you can get for an off-road vehicle. You did mention Land Rover not Defender ...

[Ed Poore]

9 hours ago, SV110 said:

Alright , got my dad to do some tests for me, as it at there house, the results are:

When pumping the pedal Before start and then starting it sinks just slightly and really slowly.

When pumping up the pedal and then releasing the vacuumhose to the servo, no hissing sound or air coming in or out.

no craks on the servo

And last but not least when putting his thumb on the hose with the Engine running there was no sucktion he said it was more blowing .

 

To me it now Points to the vacuum pump not working correctly right? or should i try anything else before i rest my case. As mentioned earlier i have a spare Engine so will order some gaskets and switch and have a go  this will probebly be during the christmas

It certainly sounds like it. I've just had the new vacuum pump delivered for mine and picking up a gasket at lunch today. I'm unlikely to have time until the weekend to replace it but I can run the same tests you your father has so see if it's exhibiting the same symptoms. Can then let you know if it fixes it

[Maverik]

19 hours ago, Snagger said:

Land Rover brakes are all good if correctly maintained.  It is a myth that their steering and braking are vague, heavy or sloppy as standard.

This is one of the throw away comments you get bombarded with when owning a Landy - drives me nuts.

[Snagger]

19 hours ago, Gazzar said:

But they do end up sub optimal a lot quicker than other marques.

Because they are neglected more - how many other marques go through so much mud, snow or water, and how many other marques are owner maintained with an "oh, it'll last another season" mentality or cheap aftermarket parts and incorrect tools?  Use decent parts and tools and do the normal maintenance and they're no trouble.

[Snagger]

12 hours ago, SV110 said:

Alright , got my dad to do some tests for me, as it at there house, the results are:

When pumping the pedal Before start and then starting it sinks just slightly and really slowly.

When pumping up the pedal and then releasing the vacuumhose to the servo, no hissing sound or air coming in or out.

no craks on the servo

And last but not least when putting his thumb on the hose with the Engine running there was no sucktion he said it was more blowing .

 

To me it now Points to the vacuum pump not working correctly right? or should i try anything else before i rest my case. As mentioned earlier i have a spare Engine so will order some gaskets and switch and have a go  this will probebly be during the christmas

If it's blowing, it sounds like you have high positive pressure in the crank case.  That suggests either a blocked breather or a lot of combustion gas getting to where it shouldn't, ie cracked gasket, head or piston, or severe bore and ring wear.

[Gazzar]

10 minutes ago, Snagger said:

Because they are neglected more - how many other marques go through so much mud, snow or water, and how many other marques are owner maintained with an "oh, it'll last another season" mentality or cheap aftermarket parts and incorrect tools?  Use decent parts and tools and do the normal maintenance and they're no trouble.

I agree. I used to look after some Isuzu and Toyota trucks, farm vehicles that were neglected and abused. Parts were horrendous to buy, but did last very well.

Access to genuine Landrover parts at reasonable cost is the key to improving reliability, I think. 

[Snagger]

Yep, but unfortunately LR are greedy and charge silly prices for most of their stuff compared to the proper OEMs like Bosch, AE, Kohl-Schmitt and so on.  It's no wonder that those new to ownership go for pattern rubbish.