Deep water

[SamW]

Good evening all

So I recently found myself in some much deep water than expected (long story, with hindsight was a very poor idea but I am where I am and learning from it). Just about made it through but only just really had to labour on the way back out. 

Since then it’s (1989 2.5td 90) been putting out allot of white smoke from exhaust. Much more lumpy at start putting out allot of smoke which when warm clears under acceleration but smokes rest of the time getting heavier as you stop and come to idle.  

So I have checked no signs of water in fuel (checked in tank, changed filter), oil (dropped checked and changed) or air (filter housing fairly oily from breather but not awash).  Had a new boost diaphragm to fit as suspect hole which changed alongside (thanks to walk through on here by Les, thank you Les). Since I have done the above I have  otice that when I come to idle there is a slight misfire type sound at the exhaust (can’t hear in engine). When engine running if I skacken the nut to the fuel line nut to each injector engine act as expected and fairly uniformly for the front three but back one has less dramatic impact on running.

please could anyone offer advice on what i should be checking next or what my issue may be?

thanks in advance  

Sam

 

[western]

Did any water get inside the engine ? 

could be a partially siezed injector, maybe they need a service/recondition/test, white smoke sounds like unburnt fuel in cylinder & coming from a poorly sealing injector.

[SamW]

How would I check that? 

Wasnt any in sumo when I drained the oil  

i will pop them out this week and have a look see. 

[Roverdrive]

Was the air filter dry? I would suggest a compression test. If any water got in you may have bent a rod.

[western]

1 hour ago, SamW said:

How would I check that? 

Wasnt any in sumo when I drained the oil  

i will pop them out this week and have a look see. 

Remove & have the tested at a diesel injection place.

[steve b]

It sounds like a bent con-rod on no4 , compression test then remove the head and it will be clear from the difference in height at TDC compared to the other three . If it happens on a Tdi it usually means crank out to remove it from the bottom as when bent the con-rod will not go up the bore attached to the piston 

cheers

Steve b   

[SamW]

Filter was dry. 

Will I get away with either buying new injector or swapping two over to confirm if head needs to come off (seem reasonably priced and easier than getting to test place for me and don’t have kit to do compression test)?

if it’s a con rod, is that engine out or can can I do in situ?

thanks

Sam

Edited December 16, 2018 by SamW

[western]

IIRC on a 2.5TD engine its a sump off & disconnect con rod cap from its parent rod/piston, cylinder head off & piston/rod comes out the top.

[monkie]

10 hours ago, western said:

IIRC on a 2.5TD engine its a sump off & disconnect con rod cap from its parent rod/piston, cylinder head off & piston/rod comes out the top.

Exactly.

Before you start buying parts I would take the head off to see what you are dealing with so you can assess what parts are damaged and how much money you will have to spend. If there is one or more bent con rods the pistons won't travel as high in the bore as they should do. With the head off and gasket removed, you can measure this. It wouldn't be unusual to find cracked pistons on this engine type.

You will require a new head gasket (the Elring one is best) and new domed washers to seal the injectors. It may also be worth while to get a set of recon injectors.

[Snagger]

It could just be a load of water still in the exhaust which is making it difficult for the engine to "exhale", hence the lumpy start and idle, and would explain white smoke perfectly.  It could take a little while to fully clear an exhaust if a lot go in.

It'd be worth removing the rocker shaft to check the push rods are all straight, though they tend to bend from piston-valve contact rather than hydraulicing, but if the air filter never got wet, it's unlikely the engine sucked in any water unless you have big air hose leaks.

[SamW]

Good morning all

i hope you’ve all had a great Christmas. 

So looks like bent rods on 1 and 4, not measured just from eye but will give it a clean down and proper measure before I drop the sump off. 

Really appreciate all the help so far. Way to go to get back on the road so may take the opportunity to do a few more jobs wel access is easier. 

Ill no doubt be back with more questions soon 

thanks again

sam

[Mo Murphy]

Sam, sorry to hear that. Seems you've discovered why most who've been around Land Rovers for a while stand and watch people deep wading rather than do it themselves 😉

Good luck with your repairs.

Mo

[bodumatau]

Sam a question, since you didn't find water in the intake side.

 did you stall in the deep water? we do lots of very deep water crossings in Botswana and one "rule" is to be very careful not to stall as the "exhaust will cool down and suck water into the piston with the exhaust valve open, I must admit I have never experienced this or seen it happen on a vehicle but it might be what happened.? 

[Bowie69]

I'm afraid that is a bit of a myth, the contraction of the air when cooling will never be enough to suck water as far up as the exhaust valve, it would have to contact to 2% of previous volume.

Normal water ingres is just from the intake, nothing to suggest otherwise here.

 

[SamW]

I have found no signs of water in anything but did have to get it back nearly 60 miles so thinking it may of dried out as does seem very typical damage. 

Only thing I can think of is I have found three small holes in the base of the filter housing which would of been below water level so although snorkel breathers etc all in place and appeared ok I was let down by a fix put in place to reduce the oil in the air filter.

didnt stall but as I was re-emerging from the depths as I got to axel depth I had to drop the clutch and give it a load of revs to keep it going and it was briefly sounds horendous.

currently enjoying the challenge and learning allot and if I’m honest expecting my fair share of issues along the way but hopefully they just add to the learning. 

 

[SamW]

Also (sorry) if I’m going to change rod or two should I be changing anything else (baskets etc aside) well I have it all open?

I will be checking for other defects I can see but more question regards should I for example be going over the valves etc or changing anything else to make the most of my opportunity?

 

[Ed Poore]

If you've got the luxury of not relying on it then what I'd be doing is stripping it down and inspecting things. Make a call then rather than buying stuff and not needing it. Shouldn't take too long if you've got somewhere nice (i.e. undercover) to work.

[darthdicky]

I'd be looking at how much it will cost in parts to fix what you have vs. putting a TDi in, either Defender or Discovery version.

Rich

[western]

As an example of cost to rebuild, I did a full rebuild on my defender spec 200tdi around Oct/Nov last year, including the machining work - - rebore, crank gring, valve seats, new cam & bearings, & all the parts my total was just under £2650,  so work out what yours would be before stripping the engine down further, most of my parts cam from here https://www.turnerengineering.co.uk/Mobile/

Edited December 29, 2018 by western
rebuild cost updated.

[monkie]

This is where Land Rovers get expensive! A couple of bent con rods resulting in a full rebuild or replacement engine! I have always thought that con rods should ideally be replaced as a set as they are balanced together?

It might be easier and quicker in the long run if you could get a second hand engine that you have seen run and put it straight in, then you could rebuild your damaged engine at your leisure and keep it as a spare. In my opinion, I would make the decision on whether to rebuild based on inspection of the crank journals/bearings and the pistons/bores. Like Western, I too rebuilt my engine a while ago. Mine is a 19J 2.5 TD like yours. I had to get the crank taken down 10 thou, new pistons/rings and the head was cracked so I got a second hand one and had it skimmed. I think the total cost was cheaper than Western's rebuild - I have a figure of about £800 in my head for parts and getting the crank and head sorted out in a local engineering shop. I was also lucky that a friend of mine had some new parts for a 19J that they sold to me on the cheap (pistons, bearing shells, gasket sets, timing belt set) as they never got round to rebuilding theirs.

 

[SamW]

Right, definitely time to think. 

I like the idea of doing this myself however currently painfully slow as reaserching/reading up at each step. I’m loving doing it and it seems a good engine to learn on however (as I’m fairly used to being in life) out of my depth and for example without reading up I wouldn’t know how to recongnise if my prop shaft needed machining or not. 

Well im fairly comfortable with the prospect that I knew when I put it back together there would be high chance of having to redo some of my work, if nothing else I feel that’s part of the learning process but this job is definitely feeling less and less of one of learn on. I really want to keep this engine if I can and if it’s feasble complete the work myself. However at those sort of costs there is a company not far from me who will collect and pop a reconditioned 200 or 300 taxi in for 1400-1600 and as much as I really dont want to do that I also want to be able to enjoy driving it. There’s plenty of other work to do on it to keep me entertained after the engine is sorted but well I enjoy working on it my young kids don’t see me where as love to join me on trips out on the local lanes  

🤔🤔 time to think  

 

thanks for you responses gents

 

[FridgeFreezer]

If you do get the engine ripped out, maybe try to keep it rather than see it go as scrap as then you've got an engine kicking around to dismantle & rebuild at your leisure, and you're not relying on it to get you from A to B.

[Snagger]

On 12/29/2018 at 10:16 PM, SamW said:

there is a company not far from me who will collect and pop a reconditioned 200 or 300 taxi in for 1400-1600 and as much as I really dont want to do that I also want to be able to enjoy driving it

 

That'll be installation costs, not including the engine.  

A fully reconditioned engine is going to cost at least 4k if complete and done properly - Turner and ACR charge about 4k for stripped engines alone (no water pump, fuel system, power steering pump, alternator, fly wheel, housing, starter motor, manifolds or turbo).  Anything you can buy for 1.4k has had a wash, paint and maybe some new crank bearings if you're lucky, and little more.

[SamW]

Well it’s taken me a while but finally started putting it back together. 

No. 4 had a cracking bend in it so I’ve taken the chance to change them all as well as pretty much everything I can well I have access to it. 

Taking ages, but learning allot and enjoying the process. 

Thanks for all the help. 

 

 

[western]

oh thats a bit bendy, glad your enjoying the strip/rebuild, its the best way to learn & total satisfaction when its done & running. don't be afraid to ask even if you think its a 'stupid' question, we won't bite your head off, we all had to start somewhere.