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garrycol

Poor Spark - EDIS 8 in Default Mode

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Trying to get my RV8 to run on carbs with EDIS8 in default mode - has run before see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... ps6l_3Mrno

It ran on its carbs with Petrol and LPG on EDIS 8 in default - actually ran quite well, but it is not running now. Fault finding I find it has virtually no spark and cylinders 1 and 6 (wasted spark pair) have no spark at all - is not the spark plugs as they are new and work fine, the leads are OK - the issue is in either the trigger wheel (not sure I have that right), the sensor, edis 8 module or the coil packs.


I am currently pulling it all back out and rewiring it to see if that is an issue - unfortunately I am not familiar with this gear and there is no local expertise on megasquirt in my area.

Other than the wiring I do not know how to test the Edis module or the coil packs.

Any other ideas on what the issue might be.

Thanks

Garry

 

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A good EDIS coil pack should give a strong spark. So I'd start by checking wiring and voltage drop etc. Or get a new coil pack.

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If it runs at all it's unlikely to be the sensor or EDIS module, weak on two or four cyls I'd suspect the coil pack as one coil does two cylinders and there's two coils in a pack.

Are the two bad cylinders on the same pack / same half of one pack by any chance?

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Indeed, sounds very likely a coil pack failure - they are not invulnerable to that.

Either that or low voltage wiring to one of the pairs.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

If it runs at all it's unlikely to be the sensor or EDIS module, weak on two or four cyls I'd suspect the coil pack as one coil does two cylinders and there's two coils in a pack.

Are the two bad cylinders on the same pack / same half of one pack by any chance?

Thanks for all the comments.

Yes, the ones that are not working are the front two on one pac - cylinders 1 and 6 which are a wasted spark pair so when 1 fires so does 6 and vice versa.

I need to go to my local car shop to get some more - the ones I have came from the UK (either Megaquirt-V8 or Trigger wheels - cant remember) and I think they were for Escorts - now we do not have those cars here, so what general spec I should be looking at for replacements.

Thanks

Garry

Edited by garrycol

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Those coil packs were fitted on millions of Fords worldwide, I'd be very surprised if you can't find one :huh:

But anything kinda similar from a similar application should work - at the end of the day it's an ignition coil. I'd check the resistance to ensure you're not about to overload the EDIS.

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EDIS will also happily run RV8 coils such as those from the later GEMS and Thor engines, P38 Range Rovers or Discovery 2 V8s if you come across any. Also worth looking on Aussie LR sites/forums for people breaking them.

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I would stay away from used coils – how do you know what condition they are in?

An auto sparky told me that worn spark plugs place a greater load on the coil-pack, eventually causing it to fail. How many people nowadays replace their plugs, when the car seems to be running so well?

 

Cheers Charlie

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I bought two new coils and when I was putting them in I found out why cylinders 1 and 6 were not working.  The coil connectors what were provided by a Megasquirt seller when I got the trigger wheel, edis and coils are of extreme poor quality and the metal connectors in the plastic can turn from horizontal by up to 45 degrees and when inserting the plug into the coil the feed for cylinder 1 and 6 must have been twisted and the connector in the coil pack pushed it out but also damaged it.  I straightened it all out and put is all back in so I now have spark but the engine will still not fire up.

Yesterday I reject the timing and trigger wheel alignment, the VR sensor is on tooth number 5 and the sensor is 1mm from the teeth - that is the closest I can get it.

With a bit of starter fluid it is still fluffing back out the intake but now a little into the exhaust.  While it is fluffing a bit rather than backfiring the engine is not trying to run at all.  I am running out of ideas.

Cheers

Garry

 

 

 

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Plugs out, 20 mins at at 120 degrees in the oven, and refit while hot, start it up.

 

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9 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

Plugs out, 20 mins at at 120 degrees in the oven, and refit while hot, start it up.

I'd be surprised if that works for EDIS, if it's trying at all the sparks are so big it should have no problem.

EDIS is pretty darn reliable, if it has power & ground & a good VR signal it *will* make sparks, the usual issues are wiring / plug lead order, don't think I've known a dead EDIS module yet.

Just for the sake of triple checking:

 

Trigger_wheel_setup.jpg

 

coil_wiring.jpg

 

 

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I have had it work for me with EDIS.... :)

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18 hours ago, garrycol said:

...  I am running out of ideas.

Cheers

Garry

 

 

 

Yes, I had a very poor fitting plug for my EDIS, which needed treatment with a file to make it work from TW.

Anyway, new idea; remove a plug, connect it to the high-tension lead, earth it well to the engine and get someone else to crank it, whilst you observe for a strong blue spark.

 

In my case it proved to be a poor connection inside the sensor plug. Good luck,

 

Cheers Charlie

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Posted (edited)

Ok - gotta come clean as I found out something yesterday.

But first this was the engine running on carbs with EDIS on default two years ago - starts easy and ran well.

Then as you can see it was still on carbs and the EDIS wiring was just linked together with twisted wiring and electrician tape for insulation - but it ran and actually with fixed ignition ran very well even under load.  Since then the carb manifold has come off and a Thor manifold on in anticipation of MS3.  The Edis wiring was hard wired in and last week I tried to start the engine without MS3 on starter fluid with LPG but it backfired etc.  

In frustration I took the Thor manifold off and put the carbs back on thinking I could get it to start on petrol but alas no it did not happen.

Then as, mentioned I fixed the plug to the coil issues but it still would not fire correctly.

Sometime back someone either here or on another forum someone said that the symptoms I had was if the firing order was wrong and I checked this 3 times and it was correct.  With this in the back of my mind and having just found a fault in the coil plugs I deciding to verify the EDIS wiring was all correct.  I pulled out EDIS and put it back where I had it in the vid above - on the passenger seat floor - I thing unpicked all the cable shrink wrap and tape on all the wiring and then it was obvious for all (me) the see.

I had wired the coils the wrong way around - you can see that I had them right at the start in the vid and somehow doing the permanent wiring I got it all wrong.  Now it was not that I had plugged in the plugs into the wrong coil, but I had actually sent the wires for the left coil to the right coil and vice versa - the harness to the right coil is a lot longer than the one to the left so I had not just plugged in the wrong plug to the wrong coil - I completely stuffed it up - I cut the cables and reconnected them the correct way.

Well the engine fired on first start (it will not run on the carbs) but with a dribble of starter fluid going into I managed to get it to do a reasonable idle for two minutes - so now I know I have reasonable ignition and just need to sort the carbs that have been sitting for 2 years so just might need a clean out - I will see if i can get it to run on the LPG this week before playing with the carbs.

So it has taken a little while but with all your help I have been able solve this little mystery - and cause myself a little embarrassment.

Ultimately this engine will be injected and running on MS3 with no EDIS but what this issue has reminded me is that it is best to deal with one issue at a time. 

So the plan is now to leave EDIS as it is and get the engine running on the carbs (where I was 2 years ago).  Buy a Megajolt ECU so that when still on carbs I have full ignition control.  When I have that I will pull the carbs off and put on a 14CUX injection manifold and get it running on its ECU with Megajolt ignition.  Then bring in the MS3 to start on ignition or fuel then both and do away with EDIS - then sell off EDIS, Megajolt, 14CUX ECU etc.  I dont want to be sorting fuel or ignition at the same time - it is too stressful.

Thanks for all your help.

Garry

Edited by garrycol
  • Haha 1

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You could save yourself the time and expensive of megajolt by going straight for MS3 for the spark only phase. Then you're in a good position to swap to injection when the time comes, and know you've got a rock solid ignition setup as you'll have changed nothing. 

We done for sussing it out. 

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Sorry if find the 1000 pages of MS3 documentation is just too overwhelming for me at the moment - the dedicated MS forum is carp and there is no support locally - most tuners have never heard of MS and don't want to talk to you about it.

Megajolt is cheap basically ready to go out of the box initially (yes I will have to do some fine tuning while help with MS later) and while from the same family as MS is just simpler for me.  Not doing MS at the moment.

As megajolt is not home built - there will be more chance of selling it on at a later stage if I want as the internals will not be played with by some amateur like me. I built my MS3 and I cannot get it to work on Jim Stim so it will probably go in the bin.  If there were people locally to assist that might be different but there is no one.  The nearest person to me that I know who uses it is over 350km away

Thanks

Garry

 

 

 

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as above, well done for sorting it out, it is always the simple things!

The wiring between MS and Megajolt is very similar, so similar in fact that running spark on MS is almost as simple as running MJ. 

Wiring up a Lucas EFI just seems complete insanity to me, it is so old it is likely it won't work properly anyways, and there are a good number of wiring changes to get it to run with MJ, all of which customisations you will have to junk when you move to MS.

Compare the amount of wiring between MS spark only and MS EFI, here: https://www.megasquirt-v8.co.uk/ms_wiring.php

Appreciate it is MS1, but the principle is the same.

 

 

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Glad you found it, this does confirm my anecdotal 100% record of it being wiring problems and not a faulty EDIS module!

MS3 is a brave move, and a tad unnecessary and complicated IMHO... you can do it all pretty solidly and simply with MS1+EDIS, if you really want the extra resolution etc. then MS2 has finally reached some sort of maturity (apparently, I don't keep up with developments), whereas everything I've seen and heard about MS3 is it's just massively complicated :(

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MS3 overall external wiring schematic is at page 17 of 222 here:

http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/MS3baseV30_Hardware-1.5.pdf/MS3baseV30_Hardware-1.5.html

EDIS specific details are on page 126, as said above it will be as easy to wire as MJ. Manual states that the "IGN" (pin 36) on the DB37 goes to the EDIS SAW connection, and pin 24 of the DB37 connects to the PIP line.

 

 

 

 

 

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