Bowie69 Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 To help others on this issue I am, this evening, completing my trigger wheel build but using the Ford Transit trigger wheel which is pressed steel about 2mm thick. Not only does in make instal easier because it is thin you get the benefit of it only being about £17. A quick note to say how easy/hard it was for you would be great, once done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeSheds Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 To help others on this issue I am, this evening, completing my trigger wheel build but using the Ford Transit trigger wheel which is pressed steel about 2mm thick. Not only does in make instal easier because it is thin you get the benefit of it only being about £17.Steve Like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo828 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 No luck with the mud ring on - not able to turn the pulley - so hard it is hitting the front cover. Will try to machine the trigger wheel in the middle part to get rid of 3mm. I hope it helps. Where di you get the ford transit trigger wheel from? Scrapyard or someone selling so I can order 1 piece? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 No luck with the mud ring on - not able to turn the pulley - so hard it is hitting the front cover. Will try to machine the trigger wheel in the middle part to get rid of 3mm. I hope it helps. Where di you get the ford transit trigger wheel from? Scrapyard or someone selling so I can order 1 piece? Usually they come from Ford dealerships. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeSheds Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Usually they come from Ford dealerships. UK ford part number 1-078-767. Apparently this may go under a different number in other countries - on the AutosportLabs forum somebody said it was different in Germany IIRC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo828 Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 thanks Found some guy nearby who machined the trigger wheel - 3mm - it works now and doesnot drag. Now went to sensor mounting - but the closest to this 5 teeth setup - I am able to get 5.5 teeth (or 4) as I cannot rotate the trigger whell to the exact location and also the sensor mount that I have machined cannot be adjusted radially. Is the 5 teeth alignment so important or can it be later adjusted in megasquirt if I stay on 5.5 tooth. I haven't been able to do the EDIS limp mode test to see whether I am far away fro 10deg BTDC - but is this half tooth really an issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeSheds Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 thanksNow went to sensor mounting - but the closest to this 5 teeth setup - I am able to get 5.5 teeth (or 4) as I cannot rotate the trigger whell to the exact location and also the sensor mount that I have machined cannot be adjusted radially. Is the 5 teeth alignment so important or can it be later adjusted in megasquirt if I stay on 5.5 tooth. I haven't been able to do the EDIS limp mode test to see whether I am far away fro 10deg BTDC - but is this half tooth really an issue? Half a tooth is 5 degrees, so your limp-home will be 15 instead of 10 and you will have to compensate for this in your ignition map too. Not a biggie I would say but better if you could get it right... Nice machining by the way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo828 Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Thanks - - then I will leave it as it is - will be playing more when the wiring for edis will enable me to do the limp-home test - to see where exactly I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Good Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 I am able to get 5.5 teeth (or 4) as I cannot rotate the trigger whell to the exact location and also the sensor mount that I have machined cannot be adjusted radially. Have you tried flipping the wheel over? The adjustment slots are designed to be asymmetric so you get effectively twice the adjustability for your money. In any case, fret not if you can't get closer, a tooth either way makes little difference as you'll be putting a timing light on it to check the alignment and when you do that it is trivial to fine tune the numbers in the software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo828 Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Have you tried flipping the wheel over? The adjustment slots are designed to be asymmetric so you get effectively twice the adjustability for your money. In any case, fret not if you can't get closer, a tooth either way makes little difference as you'll be putting a timing light on it to check the alignment and when you do that it is trivial to fine tune the numbers in the software. I haven't tried to flip over as the middle of the wheel is machined to 2mm - see the picture in couple of posts above. But nevermind - I have made another sensor holder that made it to the 5th teeth now another question - the coils that I've got from you - they are brand new but do not have signs of the firing order. So before I go and try some trial and error - is there any guidance what is the firing order? And also are my understanding of the connector numbers correct (as in attached picture)? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 You mean like this? Edited to add: In your picture, wire 1 would fire coil towers 1 & 2, and wire 3 would fire 3 & 4. Wire 2 is the +12v supply which must come from an ignition switched live, preferably switched from the fuel pump relay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo828 Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Wow - thanks Fridge - thats it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeSheds Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Wire 2 is the +12v supply which must come from an ignition switched live, preferably switched from the fuel pump relay. Are you sure? I thought that (apart from a short priming run) the ECU would only switch on the fuel pump after it detects sparks? I have wired all power feeds (coil-packs, EDIS and MegaJolt) via individual fuses, to a single relay controlled by the switched feed that went to the original coil. I think that this would be a better solution ? Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Good Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Are you sure? I thought that (apart from a short priming run) the ECU would only switch on the fuel pump after it detects sparks? There's no way to detect sparks. The ECU is looking for the engine turning over, so cranking is all it needs. Running from the FP relay is fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 If you are using Megajolt then you can't use the fuel pump to power the coils, as Roger says, the fuel pump won't get switched on by the fuel ECU until it sees an ignition signal and without the fuel pump switched on you won't see an ignition signal. The fuel pump relay thing is only of use when you're using a fuel ECU that is driven off the EDIS signal, as is the case with a Megasquirt running fuel and ignition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangeyRover Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 If you are using Megajolt then the usual ignition coil supply can be used to switch a relay for the ford ignition coils. That's how I do it. It means that you don't chop any of the old loom and can revert to the old coil if you want (which you won't, when you get it working) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeSheds Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 There's no way to detect sparks. The ECU is looking for the engine turning over, so cranking is all it needs. Running from the FP relay is fine. Sorry if I was unclear in my comment - It's what I think is called the 'fly-back' voltage spike that occurs when the coil is grounded that the ECU detects. This is what I meant when I said 'it detects sparks'. The ECU uses this to determine both the RPM of the motor and that 'ignition events' are occurring. It is my understanding that until is sees 'ignition events' it will not energise the fuel pump. Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Certainly on the Flapper system, the back EMF from the negative side of the coil is detected and fed back to the ECU (Pin 1 – White / Black) to indicate that -a- the engine is running, and -b- the engine rpm. If the ecu fails to see this signal then it shuts down the FP feed (via the FP relay). Overrun cutoff in this system uses this by operating a vacuum switch (at high MAP – i.e over run & throttle closed) to cut the supply to the overrun relay which removes the feed to pin 1 of the ecu, thus shutting down the FP. The feed is via a small resister (IIRC 6K8) which helps to eliminate false low level transients from triggering the ecu input. However, if you look at the input circuit within the ecu the signal conditioning is such that the required signal needs to be a fast rising leading edge of a couple of hundred volts or so. The resistor could well be dispensed with and it would have no ill effects. To simulate the same pulse from the Ford coils, gate the coil outputs via 1N4001’s and follow this with a clamping zenner or a largish resistor to remove and small transients. I use this method to drive the Rev counter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo828 Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Based on the above - how can I make a limp-mode test with EDIS while still have the Lucas hotwire ECU on? If I remove dizzy HT leads from spark plugs - the old coil will stop feeding this "back feed signal" to ECU and it will stop the fuel pump relay etc. Am I right? If I will leave the HT plugs shoot against the engine block only - will it help? Will it not break something else... Please advise. Of course - later it will not be an issue as I will going MS. But not there so far and I wanted to finish and tidy up the EDIS installation these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Use this circuit from the coil -VE inputs............. Taken from here........... http://www.msextra.com/manuals/MS_Extra_Ha...al.htm#tachoout Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo828 Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Thank you So the output from the zener (marked as output to rev counter on the drawing) will go to white cable with black stripe that is currently on the -ve part of the original coil (the cable splits into two cable each has this 6K8 resistor on it). Will buy the diodes so I can try today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Thank you So the output from the zener (marked as output to rev counter on the drawing) will go to white cable with black stripe that is currently on the -ve part of the original coil (the cable splits into two cable each has this 6K8 resistor on it). Correct ................ also you can leave out the 6k8 resistor. The Zenner is relatively unimportant (but a 'nice to have'), it just stops small transients reaching the ecu. However the input circuit of the ecu is quite robust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo828 Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Got EDIS installed (for limp-mode test) - and it's working on the first try So far the wiring is only "temporary" - I wanted to get it work - but crimping, soldering carefully. When idling the timing light shows 10 BTDC - not jumping up and down like when run with dizzy. The tacho shows correct rpm - not jumping up and down. The tacho on the Strobe light shows double rpm on idle (thats OK as it feels the wasted spark as well ) However - when I slowly increase the RPM - then the strobe light starts flashing somehow randomly - and the timing mark is not readable - is not very got seen. But the engine runs smooth even when run in 1500rpm on idle. Is this normal or what can be causing this strobe behaviour? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Remember with wasted spark on spark is +ve and one is -ve, it can cause issues with timing lights. As long as it shows 10deg solid at idle in limp-home you don't really ever need your timing light again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo828 Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Remember with wasted spark on spark is +ve and one is -ve, it can cause issues with timing lights. As long as it shows 10deg solid at idle in limp-home you don't really ever need your timing light again. Thanks Fridge - so I will be sleeping better now. I was afraid that EDIS is able to do proper spark on idle - but somehow not on higher RPM Will do some oscilloscope testing on all the paths on monday - before doing the final mounting, cable routing etc. - to see some possible noises etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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