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Brakes: Cunifer pipes or SS/PTFE hoses?

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I am replacing nearly all of the brake pipes and hoses on the D2 after corrosion lead to a split pipe and total brake failure a few days ago (that was exciting, but is another story!)  During the removal of the old pipes the corrosion was so bad that one pipe broke in two places.

At this time I have the new pipes and hoses in position and am about to make the pipe ends and connect it all up.

But....

I was talking to a friend who hill-climbs a rather nice mini, and I mentioned the fiddliness of making some of the pipe ends in situ, and he said that he hasn't done that for years since he just runs SS/PTFE hoses the whole way from m/cyl to each wheel now...

With the ABS setup on the D2 that would be just 4 hoses, it removes 8 joints from the system (and we all know that joints are the weak point of any system), and it would be generally easier to do.

So I have three questions to put to the collective wisdom of LR4x4.com:

  1. Would this be an effective system, ie would there be either no change or an improvement in performance and reliability, ease of bleeding, etc, etc.?
  2. Would it be legal, MoT worthy and ok with insurers - I am wondering if some people in authority might be happier with a like for like replacement of the system?
  3. Are the threads/fittings in the ABS block anything special or would a standard male hose end go in there ok?

Thanks in advance :)

Roger

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I think it is, to say the least, a very unwanted area you could find yourself in replacing pipes with hoses..

Replacing the present pipes with quality brake pipe should sort you for a long time, make replacing bits easier.

Quality flex hoses on the corners & quality brake fluid should make for a good, tested set up.

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As I understand it, and this was gained a long time ago from either CCC or Performance Car, a flexible hose will always try and straighten out when pressurised. This gave a longer pedal.
This isn't so noticeable at the pedal with the standard short pipes, but it can become noticeable when long runs are involved, especially if they route round 'many' corners, as on a road car.

The advice I recall was given as 'not advised' on a tarmac competition car due to the longer brake pedal that resulted, as the flexible pipe 'adjusted' its position.
I can see the argument that a competion car can have a customised pipe routing, with less bends than a road car, but the standards of performance are set much higher.

The advice I recall would have been written before ABS became the norm. I really wouldn't like to guess the effect of full length flexible pipes on a larger car with high frequency ABS.

SS hoses never make it easier to fault find on a brake system, as you cannot isolate one axle or wheel from the system.

I think you are at risk of comparing apples with pears by comparing a Mini (BMC?) with a D2; a difference amplified by comparing a road car with a competition car, and the differences in service intervals over mileage covered.

Regards.

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There's nothing difficult or awkward about making pipes in situ, but of course you can always make them on the bench even more easily... Just copy the old one if you have it.

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Stainless braided throughout, as long as decent quality stuff, is not going to be an issue at all. It shouldn’t expand/straight under pressure as that’s the idea of the braiding! 

I had a chat a while back with David at Llama4x4 about using stainless braid throughout. 

He had a story on a RRC bodied racer running a D2 chassis and axles. It had an issue with a soft pedal after bleeding. After much buggering about, and even going back to the hose manufacturer, the issue turned out to be D2 sliding callipers flexing under heavy braking! They were swapped out for conventional type fixed ones and the rest of the system left as is, and it was fixed. 

Im going to run braided throughout on the 90 when I get to that stage. 

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Most professional race cars have hard lines everywhere, except were it needs to be flexible because of wheels moving around. Hard lines balloon less , are lighter and more compact. And cheaper also.

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Thanks for all the excellent advice chaps! I will be using Cunifer pipe and short braided hoses in an otherwise like for like replacement.

On 7/6/2019 at 5:00 PM, Bowie69 said:

There's nothing difficult or awkward about making pipes in situ

We obviously have different life experiences Bowie69 :D

  • Haha 1

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ISTR that Fridgefreezer plumbed his 109 entirely in SS flexi without any problems at all.

My biggest objection would be that SS flexi is heavy and floppy, so it needs a lot of fixing down.  It can quickly rub through just about anything it comes into contact with if there's any relative motion. Years ago I had a quick 'bodge' repair done on a Citroen with the high pressure hydraulic suspension using a short SS flexi. It contained the pressure ok, but caused a failure in another pipe that no-one noticed was touching at one point.

I've got the same flaring tool as MR-HIPPO. It made it easy to replace all the rear brake pipes on my D3 in situ - which is the only way for a car with that many hoses pipes and wires running around :rolleyes:

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When pipes replaced I now wrap the mild steel unions in Denso tape as I had to replace all my already replaced lines after 4 years when the unions had rusted way to nothing.

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9 hours ago, oneandtwo said:

When pipes replaced I now wrap the mild steel unions in Denso tape as I had to replace all my already replaced lines after 4 years when the unions had rusted way to nothing.

Yup - this is what I do too, I did a wee experiment and only did one side of my truck, oh boy I wish I had just done both side in the end. you can get brass fittings but they aren't cheap, but will last a good while. When I first rebuilt my 90 10 yrs ago I went for the make your own hard pipe lines and the tools have paid for themselves several time over now, and been used to fix up many many brake lines too. - I've got one of each of the tools as above.

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The zinc plated fittings on coppery pipe won't last 5 minutes in an armpit, let alone near the sea. I always use brass on cunifer, and make sure it is well clear of anything galvanised. Brass or stainless bleed screws are a good idea too. 

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I fitted SS braided lines on the 110 , had them on over 2 years now and they’ve been fine no problems braking at all , and I’ve just today took delivery of a full set for the project 90 . I did start to fit cunfer pipes but them thought no fit SS and I shouldn’t need to worry about them in my life time :D will put a pic up tomorrow if anyone wants me too ?

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1 hour ago, ianmayco68 said:

I fitted SS braided lines on the 110 , had them on over 2 years now and they’ve been fine no problems braking at all , and I’ve just today took delivery of a full set for the project 90 . I did start to fit cunfer pipes but them thought no fit SS and I shouldn’t need to worry about them in my life time :D will put a pic up tomorrow if anyone wants me too ?

Go on then, I like a bit of LandRover porn as much as the next guy. :blush:

 

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Must be coming up to a full moon, the weirdy strange people are coming out :ph34r:  :rofl: . Here you go brought these from Furore of the net ,8B8D5916-1A7F-4527-975B-8C03E179887C.thumb.jpeg.6c78876948668a3964fe34baf0c1d391.jpeg

6DBDD024-F5D2-4E76-8CA7-E7C1A5663CE5.thumb.jpeg.0be5674c93996413060091e2670cc711.jpeg

I priced the do it yourself ones from car builders and there wasn’t a massive difference in the price so went for these . Yes they are more expensive than copper lines but I see it as never having to worry about them again. There’s 7 lines there as I’ve got a bias valve on the project and 2 are over 2metres long for £190 which I don’t think is that bad , if any one wants  a link to the site I’ll put one up .

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8 minutes ago, ianmayco68 said:

Here you go brought these from Furore of the net ,

OOOOh Matron!

They are lovely!

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Oh they ARE shiny !

Link would be good Ian, if only to save for the time coming 👍

Mo

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David at Llama 4x4 does cracking lines. And does them completely custom to what you need, including colour :D.

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5 hours ago, ianmayco68 said:

Must be coming up to a full moon, the weirdy strange people are coming out :ph34r:  :rofl: .

I resemble that remark!

 

Very shiny, have you any pics of them in situ?

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