Vogler Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Hi all, The roof of our 110 creaked a bit the last few weeks, and tightening the screw in the front left corner didn't help this time. So removed the lining to take a look... The fixing point turns out to have cracked 😕 Presumably the permanent presence of a roof rack with RTT and a large awning attributed to the problem. I'm a bit at loss about how to solve this.... We'll be leaving for Iceland in a couple of weeks, so the 110 will have to cope with long stretches of bad roads an corrugations. Any ideas or suggestions? Greetings, Joris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR-HIPPO Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) I do not see a crack. (that said, I am as blind as a bat at times.) Is it the daylight between the two horizontal white panel edges at the bottom of the pic, that you are referring to? If yes, then (on mine at least) the lip / edge below the daylight is the edge of a separate angle section, it runs from just in front of the B-pillar, and only seems to be there to hold the top edge of the door rubber.   Edited July 13, 2019 by MR-HIPPO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Any chance of a few more photos? I'm not sure what I'm looking at, and I'm mostly sober. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vogler Posted July 13, 2019 Author Share Posted July 13, 2019 Haha! Thanks for taking interest in my post! I made some more after posting, and I've added some pointers to what one sees:  They also show the crack a bit clearer. It looks like an angled connecting piece that is riveted to the frame, and is hidden inside a channel. The PZ3 headed screw that fixes it to the windscreen frame goes though the hole at the right. Any idea if this piece is boxed in during construction, or if it would be possible to fit a new piece or a connecting block when the roof is off?  Cheers,  Joris      Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 This? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vogler Posted July 13, 2019 Author Share Posted July 13, 2019 Yes, that's it. It looks to me like that should be one piece and that it holds roof and frame together  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 I'm not totally familiar with that bit of the roof, could you take a photo from further back? So I can see the whole assembly? It looks severe, which is odd, because I can't think what would put such pressure that it would break. Initial thoughts, given the time pressure, is to use a structural adhesive and a backing plate folded to shape. A resin or PU adhesive might be enough to keep it stable until you can get it TIG welded. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vogler Posted July 13, 2019 Author Share Posted July 13, 2019 Thanks Gazzar, makes sense. I'll make an attempt to get more in an image tomorrow, but it's probably more interesting to know what's further up front, and behind the curved part of the windscreen, to see if there's access to slide in a backplate or a new part. With a bit of luck I'll be able to check an unmounted roof one of the following days, that will be even better than pics. Cheers, Joris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vogler Posted July 14, 2019 Author Share Posted July 14, 2019 Had the opportunity today to go look at an unmounted roof, which helped a lot. The solution looks to be a lot simpler that I anticipated. Clearly the broken bracket is captive in the roof arch, and rivetted to the gutter. I guess first step will be drilling the rivets and try to take out the bracket through the hole higher up in the arch. Given the fact that the bracket broke, I think it's a better idea to try and make a block and bolt it to the gutter and arch through the existing riv Greetings, Joris    Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 What broke that bracket? That took quite a lot of pressure to break. And what is the captive nut holding? But, you are right, I think that's the best approach. Â Tie a fish wire to the old bracket and fish it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR-HIPPO Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Good pics, that makes things a lot clearer. The gap looks quite tight, is there going to be enough clearance to insert the block? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vogler Posted July 15, 2019 Author Share Posted July 15, 2019 I presume that the cause is the weight of the roof rack and vibrations. The sidewalls have caved in just a bit between the windows (the side windows nudge towards one another veeeerryyy slightly) and that probably pushes the corners upwards. A member of the belgian forum had an issue after his travels to Africa, probably it was just the screw that fell out (he gave no feedback) and it got worse, resulting in longitudinal cracks: I got the pieces of the broken bracket out today: After some delibration with a friend, I'll probably make a new bracket of some plain, thicker L-shaped aluminium. A block might be too strong and result in cracks elsewhere. Hopefully it will fit through the roof channel... Fingers crossed.  As to what the bracket or screw actually hold: the whole construction in that corner seems a bit odd. I was amazed to see that the part in red is only fixed to the upper channel, and nowhere to the skin, the frame above the door or the broken bracket. Actually one can wiggle the curved part a bit. So it seems like the whole corner setup is made to move and flex. But it's no news that the defender roof is quite weak...  Cheers, Joris     Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vogler Posted July 16, 2019 Author Share Posted July 16, 2019 Made a new bracket today and was quite relieved to see that it fitted through the roof channel. During a first attempt it rotated and almost got lodged in the curve. In the second attempt I used two pieces of string to guide it and it was in before I knew it. I'm quite relieved! Too much panic for what turned out to be a simple problem... Cheers, Joris   Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Anything that attaches to a thin bracket using slotted holes and spire nuts isn’t carrying a lot of load.  Think of foot well floors and the back edges of the front wing side panels.  This bracket looks to be more for alignment during construction, certainly not load bearing.  Just weld it up and refit it. the photo of the damage roof on the yellow vehicle looks like impact or lifting damage pulling the gutter upwards and bending the roof.  It is certainly not from weight on the roof and is unrelated to your broken bracket. My guess is that your bracket was fractured during vehicle assembly (dropped or knocked) and vibration propagated the fracture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vogler Posted January 17, 2020 Author Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) I just realised that I never updated this... The issue came up again during our trip through Iceland. The new bracket held up, but the rivets broke. Same on the other side where the original rivets were broken too. So we made a return trip to Reykjavik (300 miles) to buy a hand drill and riveting tool since I expected quite some corrugations. I also put bolts through factory made holes in the inner gutter, approx. 10cm from the corners. It held up since. I guess the roof load was the cause (RTT and a large awning). I can't think of anything else. Joris Edited January 17, 2020 by Vogler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger110 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 As Snagger said, it's unlikely your issue was caused by load on the roof, the crease in the roof looks to be from a sideways or upwards pressure, probably the later imho.  has the roof been straightened since the picture? If not the stress will be evident all the time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 It is a well know fact that the roof rivits at the front of the roof break especially if using a full length rack on a !!0. The 147 Defender that Land Rover used at the factory to take visitrd round had the rivit broken  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Isn't the official rated roof load something like 75kgs unless you brace it to the chassis / a roll cage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 2 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said: Isn't the official rated roof load something like 75kgs unless you brace it to the chassis / a roll cage? The roof weight as you say is 75kg EXCEPT for overlanding which is 100 kg I think from memory. The doesn't seem to be the whole problem. Did the 147 Defender ever hace a rack fitted, if not why did the rivit pull out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigi_H Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Maybe that shows more. I made it like that in my roof  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 4 hours ago, mmgemini said: The roof weight as you say is 75kg EXCEPT for overlanding which is 100 kg I think from memory. I'm not sure they'd increase the limit off-road/overland, more likely to reduce it I'd have thought. Oddly the Defender Owner's manual 1996 says max load is 75kg, 1998 one says max load is 150kg (first two I came across in my RAVE collection) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 There were two limits that I’d heard of - 75kg dynamic and 150 static (ie with people standing on the rack for loading/unloading, or sleeping in the RTT). Some early specially rated vehicles and most later had 150 dynamic.  But from what I saw, the roofs and side panels got weaker, not stronger in later iterations, so I suspect the change was more to do with suspension than body evolutions, later models having firmer springs and dampers and being fitted with anti-roll bars as standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 Most heavy duty roof racks had 4 additional corner struts to spread the load further down the body to, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 17 minutes ago, western said: Most heavy duty roof racks had 4 additional corner struts to spread the load further down the body to, Certainly the Brownchurch type did.  You can see the front braces in my avatar picture, running parallel(ish) to the windscreen down to the hinges, with similar braces either side of the rear door.  It’s the type the Camel Trophy used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 There is a Land Rover publication. "Working in the Wild" Yo will find the roof rack information in there. The only roof rack that I have seen with the aditional braces the Brownchurch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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