200tdi vs TD5 and TDCi

[tommobot]

Quick querry, we currently have a old 'one ten' with a 200tdi and a load of aftermarket sound insulation thrown at it.. 

I love it, its simple and reliable but mrs tommobot hates it...

Steerting to vauge, no 'power' and gearbox as sloppy as anything and far to loud (apparently)

I've only ever driven a 200tdi's and a V8 RRC hybrid.

Is a TD5 era 110, or TDCi comparable to a 'normal' car in anyway shape or form...?

Or... Is a Discovery a better bet? - I would love a Discovery 3 but just... The fear....  

 

 

[Snagger]

I found the TDCI Defender steering very light, but otherwise much the same.  A thorough overhaul of the steering, making sure there isn’t any play in the joints, arms or swivel pins and correct tracking adjustment makes a world of difference.

As for power, a clean up of the injectors, setting the tallest and a thorough service may help, but Tdis have quite a lot of capacity for tuning.  The TD5 does pull better in standard guise, but a modest spend on a Tdi should gain comparable results.

Gearbox... well, the R380 gate isn’t that different in feel to the LT77.  It could be a worn selector shaft and the hole it passes through allowing a lot of play.  I think Ashcroft fit a bush in the hole to make the shaft more precise, but you’d have to check with them.  But at this age, a gear box is going to be a little worn and a TD5s may be no better.

[Arjan]

Suggest you her something to make her happy - a OneTen will never be to drive like a car, whatever you throw at it.

If she doesn't like it, she will not like it.

Simple.

 

Having said this, we had a 17 year young very French, very girly, young Lady with us last week and she loved driving the old Land Rovers and is showing signs of the well known addiction... Esp. the Ninety was much to her liking... Now her mom worries. A lot.

Oh well.

[Simon Smith]

Had a Tdci while my 200Tdi was off the road. Found the performance to be sadly lacking unless you thrash it, needs the 6 speed gearbox due to having zero torque at low revs. I know they can be tuned, but I'll  stick with my tuned Tdi.

[FridgeFreezer]

It's odd 'cos the 2.2TDCi in my jag goes like stink, but it's carrying a lot less weight and isn't shaped like a brick

[Retroanaconda]

Each iteration improved the levels of noise and vibration through more refined engines, better transmission mountings, more sound proofing and (with the Tdci) higher gearing.

All of that can be achieved on any Defender at a cost, however to a certain extent buying a later one does mean a lot of it is already done. The Tdci models are better for long-distance driving for sure as they have the higher ratio transfer box (hence the super-low 1st in the main gearbox to compensate) but this can be added to earlier ones at the cost of low-end grunt for towing. Or fit an overdrive which gives you the best of both worlds at a significant cost.

It will never be anything like even a low-end modern car, the basic design is simply too crude, but you can improve on the factory levels of noise quite well. My rattly old 200Tdi 90 has a raft of soundproofing and comfort measures which I have applied over the years and it's very good compared to many Defenders - or so people who I have in it tell me. It's still a world away from a normal car though.

Your last sentence hints at the crux of it - Land Rover basically did develop a modern version of the Defender with greatly improved comfort and only a very minor reduction in off-road ability. They called it the Discovery!

[tommobot]

So, the basic jist is, no... their not really words apart as I expected to be fair...

A Discovery would  be the best way forward as I expected.. 

She would easily agree to a Discovery 3, but the sheer level of electrics and massive BORK factor is hindering my desire somewhat!

[FridgeFreezer]

You can get a 200 or 300 D1/RRC but they'll all need welding by now.

All the D2's out there will have crusty chassis and the TD5 MPG sucks.

D3/L322 are awesome vehicles but fiendishly complex

 

...coughFREELANDERcough...

[tommobot]

A late Discovery 2, V8 LPG with a manual would almost probably suffice for me, but despite looking I cannot see a late one with a manual box anywhere - They all seem to be auto

A freelander doesn't offer the same 'do it all, chuck everything in the back or on top of ' type ownership that I like..

 

[FridgeFreezer]

1 hour ago, tommobot said:

A freelander doesn't offer the same 'do it all, chuck everything in the back or on top of ' type ownership that I like..

Don't knock it, I found mine incredibly practical - fold the seats down and you have a lot of space, not quite on a par with a Disco but not so far off... I never really struggled to get anything in it. Also they don't rust and are cheap as chips. Unless you need to go seriously mud-plugging they are well worth a look.

[reb78]

Just for contrast i tried a freelander and hated every second of it. It was not comparable to my 110 in any sense. It even broke down a LOT more.

[pat_pending]

10 hours ago, tommobot said:

Quick querry, we currently have a old 'one ten' with a 200tdi and a load of aftermarket sound insulation thrown at it.. 

I love it, its simple and reliable but mrs tommobot hates it...

Steerting to vauge, no 'power' and gearbox as sloppy as anything and far to loud (apparently)

I've only ever driven a 200tdi's and a V8 RRC hybrid.

Is a TD5 era 110, or TDCi comparable to a 'normal' car in anyway shape or form...?

Or... Is a Discovery a better bet? - I would love a Discovery 3 but just... The fear....  

 

 

Keep the 110...  Get rid of the wife!

[Tanuki]

No Defender's going to be comparable to a post-1970s car for handling, quietness, comfort. That's life.

I've driven pretty much everything - from 1960s 2.25 petrol SIIAs and 2.6 straight-sixes (which sound lovely under load) through desperately-numb "Stage One" V8s, the horrid TDs, 200/300TDis, TD5s and TDCIs - none of them compare to a 'car' for everyday driving.

Of the post-1980s stuff I prefer the TD5 - it really shows that it got 'worked-over' by BMW - it's free-revving and sounds great when you give it some serious welly in the intermediate gears [flick down to 3rd at 50MPH for overtaking, the rev-limiter is there to tell you when to change up].

200/300TDis are lethargic - and are starting to pose problems regarding spares-availability (important if your vehicle's a daily-driver and downtime costs you). I never got on with the TDCi ones either - the gearing is odd [first's far too low, I always started off in 2nd] and 6th is too high (I was happier cruising at 75MPH on dual-carriageways in 5th).

If you want to keep the wife, get her a Toyota Landcruiser on a 3-year PCP lease... and keep the 110 for yourself!

Edited August 6, 2019 by Tanuki

[Badger110]

I found the TDCI is worlds apart on the motorway from any other guise of series, 90 or defender i've had ( standard )

 

Around town it's just as much hard work as any other.

 

 

 

[oneandtwo]

I have owned over 30 defenders,  my Tdci is head and shoulders above the rest once it’s quirks were ironed out (one piece halfshafts, decent clutch and Ashcroft  input shaft). I find most of the people who knock Tdcis have never actually owned and lived with one, usually they’ve just got an old turbo d 90 with a disco 200tdi transplant!!

[smallfry]

Buy her a Suzuki Jimny and keep the 110 for yourself.

[FridgeFreezer]

12 hours ago, smallfry said:

Buy her a Suzuki Jimny and keep the 110 for yourself.

Best answer so far I reckon, only trouble is there's a waiting list for the new Jimnys!

[Snagger]

UThe TDCI performance is pretty good in standard form, well above the Tdi and I think the TD5 too (based on one test of a chipped TD5).  But like others said, the gearing is a bit odd, and you need to do a lot of shifts with that unit about town.  Add the close but feel-less gate of the six speed compared to the R380, and it’s not a nice transmission to use.  But it does cruise the motorway better than the earlier versions.  

I don’t know if they’re all the same, but our 2009 90XS had very firm suspension.  Too firm for my liking on road.  I also find the old style seats more comfortable on my back, the newer type having too little lumbar support, but that is highly subjective - most people seem to prefer the new seats.

What does make a world of difference to usability is the reduced noise and vastly improved (actually too powerful) heater in the TDCI.  Aircon is great if you have it, too.  The folding rear seats are way better than the earlier side facing rear seats, at the expense of a little load space width when folded and losing half of them.

I think they have poor reliability, though, with dry splines on the drive flanges leading to rust and wear, and weak diffs which elongate the cross pin holes in the carrier - for their torque, they really needed a four pin diff.  While the older single pin diff with circlips may have been ok, the late type they used with a single roll pin securing the cross pin is rubbish - hole wear shears the roll pin, no matter how many times you replace it, and that happened to ours, which never went off road and never towed, in under 25000 miles.  That allows the centre pin to slide out until it reaches the ring gear and hits the pinion head on every revolution.  Not a good thing.

The other reliability issues were typical - shorting wiring inside the front wing, failed lamp units, failed contacts for the high level brake light needing new glass, dire panel alignment, blistering paint and cheap heat shields that fracture and then rattle.  I think you’ll find those on all generations, though a little less on the 200Tdi.

Somehow, though, I think the older vehicles are more charming to drive.  Of course, that’s only of benefit to enthusiasts, and it doesn’t sound like it’ll endear your wife.

[tommobot]

Thanks for the many replies guys, much appreciated. It's certainly alot to think about..🤔

 

Let's say a tdci 110 is circa 15k at best.. my 110 is maybe worth 6k.

If I threw 5k at mine, complete refresh of steering, bushes, shocks etc.. converted to V8 on lpg and a few other usability upgrades does that put me in a better position than a high mile tdci..

 

Silly dieselgate has now got diesel particulate on the edge of everyone's tounge (Mrs tommobot).. a car approaching tax exemption, with a petrol engine, that is usable.. oh my.. im arguing with myself.. 

I honestly think if my current 110, had a 'quiet' V8 and the perceived 'quality' of the interior of a tdci era car she would be happy..

[smallfry]

And an autobox ……………………...

[Snagger]

8 hours ago, tommobot said:

Thanks for the many replies guys, much appreciated. It's certainly alot to think about..🤔

 

Let's say a tdci 110 is circa 15k at best.. my 110 is maybe worth 6k.

If I threw 5k at mine, complete refresh of steering, bushes, shocks etc.. converted to V8 on lpg and a few other usability upgrades does that put me in a better position than a high mile tdci..

 

Silly dieselgate has now got diesel particulate on the edge of everyone's tounge (Mrs tommobot).. a car approaching tax exemption, with a petrol engine, that is usable.. oh my.. im arguing with myself.. 

I honestly think if my current 110, had a 'quiet' V8 and the perceived 'quality' of the interior of a tdci era car she would be happy..

The approaching tax exemption is a modest factor now, but could become a huge factor soon, especially for diesels.  The bigger issue, though, is the condition of the project vehicle.  Rebuilds typically cost around twice the estimate of people like us.  If the chassis, bulkhead and doors are in good order, then the rest if tidying up isn’t too expensive (unless you get a decent professional respray).  Buzzweld’s chassis treatment and body cavity protection is costly looking at first glance, but quite economic in the long run (2/3 the price of a new chassis, without the labour of fitting it, and protects a lot more to boot).

The big driver changes of the TDCI are the performance, heater, seating and noise. A little tuning with a V8 installation will give the power and sort out the bulk of the noise (leaving a pleasant one unless you fit a silly exhaust), a Webasto or Eberspächer type heater will sort the cabin warmth if the V8 doesn’t provide enough (unlikely to be needed, especially if you give the standard heater a good overhaul, cleaning the matrix inside and out) and seating can be changed easily if you find you do prefer the new type.

 The fallout of dieselgate will likely only get worse, so I think your rebuild idea has more merit than replacement, as long as the vehicle is sound now and you have the budget to do the conversion, tidy up and preservation work properly and without cutting corners.  

[Pappa Smurf]

Another option for making it more pleasant would be a BMW straight 6 petrol. Quiet, powerful and more modern than a RV8. There are FB groups devoted to fitting them. 

[tommobot]

Chassis is decent, bulkhead decent, existing running gear is generally decent...doors are a bit ropey, but aren't they all.

I've added about £350 worth of sound proofing to doors, roof , floor, bulkhead, basically everything I could. It was still loud, but admitidly that was mostly my fault but running silly wide wheels.. these have now been replaced by 235s road based tyres, only driven round the block but the difference seems night and day.

What actual difference is there in terms of steering between the later models is there? - that was the main area of vagueness that she hates.. I can't see how are complete rebush, new shocks, overhaul etc to get as good as can be cannot be far of a modern defender. Tbh, this one's got an 3 bolt steering box, but was rebuilt in the last year...but still. The fundamental design is surely still the same!?

The straight six is a good shout.. I would love the smoothness and refinedness of that but fear electrics are my weakness... Requires more reading..

 

[Landy7]

I have a 200tdi and a 2.4tdci, I also put a lot of work in sound proofing the 200TDI but it will never be the same as the TDCI, which is just less noisy. I've found the steering to be the same, my 200tdi is as precise as the 2.4tdci. In the end, they are both Defenders and besides engine & gearbox, not much has changed. I like driving both, but neither of them are comfort vehicles and never will be.. If the wife doesn't like it, you can't do much about it.

[Mo Murphy]

Change the wife ?

Mo 😎