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Gazzar

TDI 200 loud knock on tickover

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It’s in a 109, so as long as those bolts can be removed (many doing Series retrofits omit them entirely), then the ladder frame comes out simply enough after dropping the oil pump.  Done it myself a couple of times, after learning the hard way and drilling the SIII bell housing to clear the cap head bolts that I had counter sunk in the flywheel housing...

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I don't think it's the crank shaft bearings, it's something to do with the cam area. I'm thinking it could be a cam follower, or a push rod. The noise came from there when listening with the scope.

I'll move the 109 out of the way, clear the workshop and then strip the head and timing off, needs doing anyway.

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Sounds daft I know, but sound can travel on a 200. I had an issue with an odd noise I couldn't pin down, sounded a bit like a lot of things. It was the vacuum pump. 

I'd suggest chasing the noise around the lump

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It's louder near the water pump. I use a stethoscope, and it's quite good at locating noise.

But oil is coming out the timing case, so that needs doing regardless.

And, as I'm there.......

Maybe full rebuild time? 

It's a higher mileage engine. 

How much difference is there in the cost of a short engine compared to a DIY rebuild, I wonder?

Block, bearings, pistons and cam?

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I'd strip it as far as you can, while it still runs (timing cover off etc) a d then take another listen.

Seems like jumping into a full rebuild because of a knock may be a bit premature, at least to me.

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I thought the same - maybe taking the cover over will reveal an obvious cause. 

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Yes, you are right.

I'll take the cover off, explore my way in. Then head, then cam covers. See what I can see.

But if all fails, best have a plan!

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Plan ? Nonsense, make it up as you go along. Works for me 😉 

Mo

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Hi mileage on a 200 is 500k 😊

The gradual strip is probably your best option

Can you record a sound clip?

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Sound clip in post one.

I'm working up the options. If I find something obvious that's wrong, and not too deep, I'll fix it and do it back up.

If it's deeper (bearings), then I've the debate of recon Turner short block, or some degree of DIY full or part rebuild. There isn't much in the cost between Turner and DIY, if the crank, cam and bores are bad, it's cheaper to outsource to Turners.

I'll aim to get to it in a week's time.

 

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Sound clips sounds like a normal engine running.

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It sounds like a transit!

It's a very loud knock. Anyway, I'll investigate further as soon as you I can.

 

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Now confused (even more so than normal).

I finally managed to clear space and time to get this into the workshop.

Knock, knock, knockity knock.

Remove water pump.

Knock. Mainly from the cam area, possibly the IP, using the stethoscope.

Remove timing cover.

Smooth ( for a TDI ).

I'm going to have another look at the valve timing, maybe there's a valve cap or something stuck somewhere.

What fun!

 

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Any witness marks on the inside of the cover to suggest something contacting it?  The other likely cause is the crank pulley, given that you have removed it to get the cover off.  Check it for internal wear, especially the key slot, and check the pulley bell is secure on the damper wheel.

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The knock didn't go away with the pulley, the damper, the water pump or the alternator removed.

I think it might be the cam pulley. I'll check the end float in the morning. But I think that's a witness mark in the photo.

It might just be a loose pulley. It might.

I'll also need a new front cover. That's a crack. I vaguely remember this was already damaged when I did the belt the first time. It looks like someone had a bad time taking the cover off once, as the bolt head surface is at 10degrees away from flat, I suspect an angle grinder was involved.....

IMG_20190923_165217.jpg

IMG_20190923_173712.jpg

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Wasn't there a thing, where the ( I'm trying to guess/ remember here ) cam shells? used to rotate and block an oilway? 

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I think so. I don't think that's my issue, the oil light goes out straight away.

I hope it's not my issue!

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28 minutes ago, Gazzar said:

I think so. I don't think that's my issue, the oil light goes out straight away.

I hope it's not my issue!

Not to make you uncomfortable, but if a shell had rotated, then the oillight might not "see" a problem as it doesn't loose preasure, it just builds it up on the rotated shells bagside?

/Mads 

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1 hour ago, Yostumpy said:

Wasn't there a thing, where the ( I'm trying to guess/ remember here ) cam shells? used to rotate and block an oilway? 

Yes, but the way I understood it from Richard Turner (and I may have grasped the wrong end of the stick) it generally moves in a way that allows excess oil flow and you lose pressure.

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11 hours ago, Gazzar said:

 

I think it might be the cam pulley. I'll check the end float in the morning. But I think that's a witness mark in the photo.

It might just be a loose pulley. It might.

 

IMG_20190923_165217.jpg

 

It looks like a witness mark to me.  Could be a loose or distorted pulley, could be a bad thrust bearing for the front end of the cam shaft, could be a bowed front cover.  Whichever it is, it could be hard to find, but I think you’ve found the source of the noise.

It looks like the belt has been rubbing the cover, too, which isn’t right.  You could have a misaligned pulley that is slipping the belt forward.  The chap making the Brtiannica Restorations videos had that problem with a 300 which he struggled to find a cause for.  Eventually he found the timing casing was slightly buckled, putting the injection pump on a small incline.  It seemed to have been cause by misstating of the bracket supporting the back end of the injection pump and is why they have a sliding sleeve for the bolt, a bit like on alternator mounting lugs.

 

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Thanks.  I think so.

Yes.  I have the bones of a plan.

It goes like this (some may not be necessary but the timing of the arrival of bits makes it wise to over order):

Measure endfloat on pulley.  _ Get DTI - ebay (Friday)

Replace timing chest (not mega dear - and I don't trust the old one, plus avoids the issue of fitting the inner seal over the crankshaft) this week -Turners

Replace bits of the camshaft pulley - thrust washer etc, maybe even the cam pulley?

Get IP checked and tuned up to unleash the extra horses in the head (diesel bob?)

Figure out a smarter way of fitting the alternator adjustment bracket.

New timing belt etc.

Sort out a decent air filter.

Fit snorkel (eugh - cutting the wing, I don't like this - but I really dread deep water)

 

Questions - do I need to replace the static idler pulley?  What else do I need to do?  The Waterpump looks okay, no play, no leaks.

 

Thanks for all your help and feedback, it's really great to have my ideas sense checked.

 

 

 

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I always replace the idler and tensioner pulleys unless they have a known short use period . If you don't like cutting the original wing you could always put a later series3 outer on and use the heater intake ?

great to see you have found some evidence to back up the noise

cheers

Steve b

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You are right - replace all.

 

I did think of using the heater, but I LIKE my heater - it works.

I think I'll do a tdi cut, and use the tdi inner plumbing parts.  That's a fairly well used route and should be easy enough to seal up.

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Ah , of course it's a 3 , for some reason I had 2a in my head . Your plan sounds good .

Steve

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