Jump to content

Stupid Lorry Driver Might Have Damaged My ENGINE!!


skirky dave

Recommended Posts

Peaklander.

Yep..I stand corrected, sorry.

lo-fi, 

My god what a company to jump into bed with.  The fact that it shares the same oil as the gearbox, i thought was a great idea. So just how long the contract with Britpart will last, is anyone's guess.    To be honest, i thought , that i had read  ( years ago ) somewhere that Britpart had 2 parts to the company. The Civilian part and the Military, where they had the superior parts. I don;t know if that's true though.

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, lo-fi said:

Roamerdrive got into bed with Britpart. Purveyors of exquisitely dreadful bearings. No doubt pressure to cut cost and corners led to the bearings being an easy target for bringing distributor cost down/profit up. A shame as its technically a much better unit than the Fairey, production issues aside. 

Yep.  They started off pretty good, made in Vancouver, and were tougher than the Fairey, but with poor bearings shipped in from China.  But as the product got a good reputation, they farmed out the increased manufacture to China, likely through Britpart as lo-if says, and so quality of shafts and bearings appears to have dropped.  They also worsened the design of the front casing of Series models to increase oil flow, making the locating lugs extremely fragile in the process.  I had installed the updated cover, but went back to the original.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, skirky dave said:

Regarding the Roamedrive ... well i'm pretty shocked to be honest. I thought they were supposed to be the bees knees. 

 Fridgefreezer  do you use one ?, if so have you had any problems ?.

Yes, got the DS-B model on the 127 Ambulance and (touch wood) it's been flawless - that's behind a 4.6 V8 in a ~3ton vehicle.

It's a real shame about the current state of crappy bearings but I guess Britpart can ruin anything :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi guys,

Well...here's a bit of a heads up so far. During the brief interlude of the rain, i managed to have a look at things.       The pushrods are all ok and dead straight.   Lifted the cylinder head by 3 inches ...and....out dropped the 4 hot spots  ( bugger ) !!!. That explains the ( ting  ting ) noise, a bit like tapping a forks prong in the bottom of a glass beaker ,.. for want of a better description. The head gasket has 3 raised circular and perforated holes on it.  The perforations are about 10 - 12 mm across with small holes about 1 - 2 mm diameter in the middle of each perforation. I;m trying to get my son to help me load up some images for me.... i've forgotten and also use his old iphone.

I didn't get chance to turn the crank by hand  to see if all the pistons came exactly to the same level. as it started throwing it down with rain again, so i chucked all my toys out of the cot and decided to have a few beers . Sick of the damn rain....and more to come !!. Just hoping upon hope that a con rod isn't bent.

I phoned the engine place and they said,..." If i get all the parts , new rings, bearings  etc etc ( once they have told me the size /  measurements )  . hone out the bores, new engine rear seal ( mines leaking a little ) plus fitting new hot spots, skimming and pressure testing the head and then fit the said parts, i could be looking at around £400 maybe a little bit more.

The valves look to be ok, i think . Slight discoloration from possible heat / steam maybe. However... the engine will have to be pulled out for all that work to be done and i'm not doing that at the moment with all this rain and i also have to wait for my son to borrow an engine lift and the firms van to transport the engine.

The saga continues.

Cheers 

Dave.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd not expect hydraulic damage to extend much to the valve train - it's not the same as a piston hitting a valve. Gasket, rods, rings, pistons potentially... Hopefully you've got away with a blown gasket and some displaced hotpots, all of which are easily sorted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fridgefreezer

A 4.6  V8 in a 127 Ambulance , wow, the possibilities with that vehicle  ( converted camper comes to mind ) apart from the fuel costs !!. That  aside, lucky you mate, What a machine..

Lo-Fi.

Am i to understand it, that, ALL four hot spots need to be replaced with new as opposed to trying to refit the one's that have fallen out. I get the idea that new one's are fitted then the head is skimmed to make the head perfectly flat.   Have you ever honed out the bores yourself and replaced piston rings, bearings etc. You sound quite knowledgeable.

Cheers again

Dave.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, lo-fi said:

I'd not expect hydraulic damage to extend much to the valve train - it's not the same as a piston hitting a valve. Gasket, rods, rings, pistons potentially... Hopefully you've got away with a blown gasket and some displaced hotpots, all of which are easily sorted.

That’s a point that I was trying to make earlier - the valve train gets damaged when the icing is out because an extended valve gets hit.  Water in bores is different - the compression is occurring when the valves are closed, so they are seated and there is no force on the stems, rods or rockers, and nowhere for the valves to bend or buckle as they’re already seated.  That’s why I suspected head gasket and hot spots.  
 

Dave, £400 is good for that work, and you should end up with a reliable plodder of an engine.  Spend the same on a replacement engine and who knows what you’ll get?  If you’re happy with the 12J performance, then it seems the obvious choice to drag it down to those guys.  I was happy running mine for 15 years, and still miss it’s comparative quiet and smoothness!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nick,

Right you are mate, now i get it, cheers for that. Not knowing exactly what's happening with the engine parts when things go wrong, especially i when they go wrong in different scenario's, can be a little bit confusing, especially to the layman such as myself. As for the comparative quietness...well,  i removed all the so called sound deadening  ( felt ). so i could hear every little noise and rectify as and when. I have to admit, that, when my son had his 110 Defender Tithonus 200TDI , is was far quieter inside but there again it had thick rubber matting all over the place but not the Wright Off Road stuff you see advertised. So in effect, yes the old girl is fairly noisy, slower, bumps and rattles some times but it's what i call my ( B )  Road Plodder,  i get there in the end. And at 27 - 33 mpg i can't complain too much.

I shall turn the crank this afternoon and check the piston alignment at the top of the bores and let you know my findings, still raining here at the moment but stopping later.

Cheers again Nick

Dave.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, skirky dave said:

Fridgefreezer

A 4.6  V8 in a 127 Ambulance , wow, the possibilities with that vehicle  ( converted camper comes to mind ) apart from the fuel costs !!. That  aside, lucky you mate, What a machine..

How did you guess - the engine swap & camper conversion write-up is on here, plus a few of the travels. TBH the fuel isn't that bad for a 3 ton shed on wheels although it does drop off a bit above 80mph :ph34r:

BTW sound deadening stuff makes a hell of a difference - the ambulance has the Wright off road mats plus a few other bits of sound/heat proofing and it knocks so much noise down. The big difference is actually the transmission tunnel rather than anything in the engine bay etc. although the V8 rattles less than a diesel. People don't realise just how much noise a Land Rover gearbox & transfer box can make!

My 109 has zero soundproofing and the biggest improvement to that was a custom GRP transmission tunnel which removed all the usual panel gaps. I don't really like a lot of the sound-proofing stuff in a Series as it tends to trap moisture and just lead to corrosion, and if you want peace & comfort you can buy a Range Rover or Disco!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fridgefreezer,

Agree with the Range Rover and Disco part. The other reason i took out the felt was because it stank to high heaven when it got wet.  As for the Wright Off Road stuff, i had heard many different opinions , some being  quite negative considering the high cost of it so, i thought to hell with it. Just put a couple of rubber mats in for my feet and wash it out with the  hosepipe when it gets muddy, let it dry and away you go again.  As for the back of the 88, i installed 2 bus heaters on separate  switches,  just used two T pieces  and cut into the main heater pipes. I then run the hosing under the floor and up into the back. Gets toasty in winter, really warm. Had those in for years. £10 pound each from a bus scrapyard in Barnsley.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep, the WOR mats made a difference for me too, and the bulk of the noise now comes from the transmission like you say, John - the matting is thinner there and I need to put something over the ledge between the tub bulkhead and seat base. I could do with some lead flashing on the underside of the tunnel cover, seat base and the three seat base removable panels.  Amazing how noisy the transmission is, especially the old Series stuff.  That was one of the reasons I was looking at a zF and Borg Warner conversion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, skirky dave said:

Fridgefreezer,

Agree with the Range Rover and Disco part. The other reason i took out the felt was because it stank to high heaven when it got wet.  As for the Wright Off Road stuff, i had heard many different opinions , some being  quite negative considering the high cost of it so, i thought to hell with it. Just put a couple of rubber mats in for my feet and wash it out with the  hosepipe when it gets muddy, let it dry and away you go again.  As for the back of the 88, i installed 2 bus heaters on separate  switches,  just used two T pieces  and cut into the main heater pipes. I then run the hosing under the floor and up into the back. Gets toasty in winter, really warm. Had those in for years. £10 pound each from a bus scrapyard in Barnsley.

The WOR kit is expensive, but I think it’s worth it - it helps a lot with noise, heat and looks, and is very tough.  I’ve not read my complaints except about price, but maybe some have unrealistic expectations of silence.  But there are so many places noise gets in on Series vehicles that unless you work on several other spots, the effect of the kit will be diminished by noise bypassing it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A few ago i was talking to a sound engineer about this kind of thing and he said, your better off with thin layers of different things,   ( i can't remember what they were now ) because different noises from different materials were heard at different frequencies so therefore needed different composites to render them inaudible. He also said it would be a fraction of the thickness and weight but could be done. It all went a little bit over my head about resonanse  to be honest !!. So i never bothered. It's a 1960 landy ..It gets muddy end off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, It's finally stopped raining here and the sun has made a very welcomed appearance.  However my worst fears have been answered. 

So i turned the crankshaft and brought up  Piston Cylinder No 1   =   spot on , No problem..../.....No 2, ( 1.0 mm  )  approx,  Below Head Surface, /  No 3  (  2 mm Below , Approx ) No  4 No Problem.

In effect...2 con rods bent.

I then pushed my fingers on top of each Piston to check for any movement........All 4 moved ...Bugger.  So just what that tells me,  i'm not quite sure but there is movement.

Not the perfect start to the day , by any means.   I have a feeling, that, this is going to cost me a lot more than i first thought.  If so.... it can wait until next year.

I have put so much time and effort into this over the last 18 months  that i just feel  fed up with it now. My motor is at the bottom of my drive ( run off area to catch drips of oil ) but the entire driveway is all on a slope,so as soon as it rains  , everything is wet through

I'm aware the purist out there would use no one but Turner's but the costing for me  would be massive .....and it's Christmas around the corner.

Oh well ...moan over!!.

Dave.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hurbie.

Hi mate, i was always led to believe that if you could push the top of the pistons with finger force, then it indicated there was a problem. I was watching "Mike" from Britannica Restorations Ltd on youtube, who was servicing either a Land Rover 2.5 N/A  or 300 TDI engine ( can't remember which ) and he pushes the pistons with his fingers, which, ,,don't move at all ( under close up ) and he says " Well there's nothing wrong with those, nothing at all. lovely" or words to that effect. Which, in comparison with mine look to be rock solid.  I would say that all of mine have 10 thou of movement, 15 thou tops. But you say this is normal....interesting.

Bowie69

Your right, times are a little tight at the moment, ( Ducks backside in water comes to mind ). To replace conrods, i have to remove them by pushing them through the cyl head but then use a special tool to replace the rings on the piston,.. correct ?. One of these rings is very fragile and can easily be broken, by all accounts.   Would you use the old rings or..new one's which would mean buying a de/glazer  ( hemorrhoids on a stick ) as i call it, place into drill and de/glaze the bore and then re ring. Again, a job i have never done before.  Then ,of course , is the matter of fitting new bearings /shells whatever they are to the conrod / crankshaft,...how do i know which size is needed?.  This is COMPLEATLY new to me!!. This is a HUGE learning curve when you've never done it or had any hands on experience with kind of thing.  To a qualified mechanic or an experienced amateur, this would be a walk in the park, easy. But to some of us....daunting.

lo-fi

That is a very very kind offer. Thank you!. 

Very generous thought.

All the best guys

Dave.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just use the original pistons and rings, no need to deglaze. 

The tool you are on a out is a piston ring compressor, and about £15. Yes, rings are fragile, but taking your time and not forcing things and you will be fine. 

For bearing size, check the old ones, they will be stamped with -10, for example, for a 10 though undergrind. Buy the same ones. If no marking they are standard. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bowie69,

Ok mate. So let me get this clear in my head,  -10 thou is an underground bearing ,  and standard size has no markings. Just got to make sure i take notice to how they come out/apart.'

I don't suppose there could be any chance that the size could have worn away , leaving me in the mire, is their ??.

In my mind, i'm probably overthinking this and judging by the way you've described it, it's far easier than i'm expecting it to be. I SHALL SEE !!!    Don't disappear mate, your experience may well be called upon....in fact it most probably will.

Cheers again mate

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You need to bear in mind it started and ran ok before the "moment" . It's just nuts and bolts and procedure - all well documented and simple . A ring compressor and a torque wrench and some time to do it and you are  there .

I still think you need to remove the engine and crank to pull the pistons and rods but by all means try to remove up the bore first , it's definitely the case with Tdi bent rods . Pulling it apart will be a chance to assess everything and then allow time to decide what to do longer term and budget for it . One or two s/h rods and maybe a set of big end shells are not going to be too much ££'s and it's together again.

Regarding piston free play there will be some , the aluminium alloy they are made of expands when hot much more than the cast iron block so if they are too tight when at ambient temp. they will bind at running temps.

The shells will be clearly marked . simple to drop the sump with the engine still in  and remove the cap of the easiest one to get to and check the back face.

Steve b

Link to comment
Share on other sites

steve b,

High Steve,  torque wrench i've got. Iv'e done the cylinder head a couple of times. The biggest majority of things i've watched over the last few days have been Trail Fitters toolbox (Land Rover ) Norfolk based i believe, on youtube, but it's mostly 200-300 TDI'S and of course Mike in Canada , very good in my opinion as he goes through many pitfalls and tips. Cheers Steve regarding the point about the aluminium expanding, that makes sense now you put it like that. I was beginning to think i had a serious problem with the engine.

I was hoping someone might have done this with the 2.5 N/A whilst the engine was in situ to say yes or no to removing the conrod and pistons.

Cheers again for your input Steve

Dave.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pistons and rods will come up through the bore, not down. No need to remove the crank. You'll need to remove the sump to get the caps off the con rods, of course, but it can all be done in situ. At TDC, with everything healthy, you shouldn't be able to move the pistons up or down any perceptible amount. In-spec clearances for wrist pins and big end bearings are literally a few thousandths of an inch. 

If you're worried about getting stuck in, purchase a dead lawn mower engine for a couple of quid and play around tearing it down and reassembling. It's the same thing, just smaller, and everything is done essentially the same way. If you can remove and reinstall a piston successfully on an old Briggs block, you can do a 12J. Don't be afraid of it: it's nuts and bolts the same as everything else :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

lo-fi

I take it i don't have to get the engine to TDC to start this procedure and to just do ONE piston at a time . Just one question ....IF i discover that a ring HAS broken, should i re/glaze the bore or just re/ring and fit. May sound a stupid question but i had to ask.

Cheers again mate.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dave, I'm sorry to read about the trouble you're having and that money is tight especially in the run up to Christmas. 

To keep costs down, don't go buying any tools specific to the job. I've got plenty of tools for these engines and I am not rebuilding anything right now. I can lend you a ring compressor, deglazing tool, timing locking tool set etc. I'm sure we can do a forum relay if needs be. Send me a pm of what you need and if I have it, you can borrow it to get your Land Rover sorted. 

I am driving up north this week and stopping at my mum's in Leicestershire. 

Phil

Edited by monkie
Extra info
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We use cookies to ensure you get the best experience. By using our website you agree to our Cookie Policy