Batteries

[TSD]

23 hours ago, ianmayco68 said:

I’ve read a few reviews of the red tops not being as good as they used to be , and the lower capacity was putting me off but then you read of people travelling the world with them fitted and the specs being okay , Odessy do a smaller one but they’re £300 and you only get a 2yr warranty . 

 

About 10 or so years back, we used a lot of Optimas in some mobile equipment, mostly yellow tops. They were used and abused to destruction - rapid charged and then run usually until absolutely flat, on a daily basis. Failures were expected, and when the run time dropped too low, we just swapped them out. Over a few years, the rate of failures definitely increased noticeably, but I don't have access to the data any more.

I have measured the Ah capacity of one brand new Optima (yellow top) and found it well below spec. No way to know if that's typical or not.

One interesting thing I found is that while you can usually spot a failing battery because of slow cranking when cold, that didn't seem to be the case with red tops - in the Ibex the 2.8 would crank perfectly normally, but if then engine didn't fire straight away, the battery couldn't manage a second attempt. When I measured the 50Ah battery, it was well below 20Ah, but until I needed that second cranking cycle, I had no idea there was an issue. Maybe thats just because the CCA is so high to start with, maybe not.

My current fave is the Varta Stop-Start Plus batteries. Ibex has two fitted, and 2Bex is slated to get the same when built. This is just an experiment on my part - Varta suggest they shouldn't be fitted to non stop-start vehicles (presumably they benefit from the smart charging schemes in modern cars), but I've found no downsides so far. (I have one in the D3 as well, but that does have the smart alternator control, even though not stop-start).

 

[miketomcat]

1 hour ago, TSD said:

 

My current fave is the Varta Stop-Start Plus batteries. Ibex has two fitted, and 2Bex is slated to get the same when built. This is just an experiment on my part - Varta suggest they shouldn't be fitted to non stop-start vehicles (presumably they benefit from the smart charging schemes in modern cars), but I've found no downsides so far. (I have one in the D3 as well, but that does have the smart alternator control, even though not stop-start).

 

I'm also taking part in TSD's experiment though he may not remember. I have two varta stop start batteries in my ibex but they were in our 110 and the one before that as well so they are 6 years old now. 

Mike

[TSD]

Yep, I remember. I think Fridgefreezer is in on the game as well now. Just didn't want to encourage someone I don't know to spend a pile on potentially unsuitable batteries. At least if your's suddenly die, I get to steal them and learn something 

Best battery I've ever tested was the factory fit part in the D3. When I bought the car it was 8(?) years old and the battery was original, confirmed by date code stamp. So I replaced is as part of the 'new truck' prep, and stuck the old one on the test rig. Amazingly it still exceeded the label spec on Ah capacity! I don't measure cranking amps because it's a pita, but Ah capacity is easy on the bench, especially if you already consider the battery to be scrap and aren't worried about protecting it from deep discharge

 

 

[ianmayco68]

Cheers all very interesting , so as I’ve never seen this asked in any thread I’ve read and out of curiosity I have a 200tdi , when people ask about batteries the usual reply is fit the biggest you can fit in the battery box which is sound advice  and the factory fit ones are a bit low on CCA , so what is the minimum CCA you would require for a 200tdi and what’s the lowest AH you should have on a for a starter battery if say you had a 100amp alternator and a split charge system with a leisure battery or 2 to run all the none factory fit extras . So the starter battery was starting the truck and only running the stuff originally fitted ?

cheers Ian 

[Ed Poore]

To be honest I tend to follow James' advice and pop down to the local ag factors place and buy 019 batteries. You can (if you fill in the dip in the middle of the battery box) pretty comfortably fit two 019s side by side in the standard battery box.

Interestingly I had two Bosch Silver / S5 or whatever they were called in the L322 (which people had ranted and raved about on the fullfatrr forum) and they were a bunch of poo,  incredibly easy to kill and for the price it wasn't worth it. Had a Yuasa in the 110 which winched the 110 across the yard when I killed the second crank, forgot to ask Dad to put it on charge when I left to go back home. Cue battery that held charge but struggled to deliver when cranking the 110, been used as an electric fence battery absolutely fine since then.

Never really had an issue with Yuasa or Varta. I think it was a Varta AGM that was in the 110 before I had the Yuasa and that was the original one from 1994 in it, that got replaced in 2012 I think .

[BogMonster]

The best batteries from the factory were the ones they used to fit in the early 2000s, for Td5 Defenders I think they used Genuine Parts number YGD100860. I can't remember for sure what the branding was (I think it was Delphi) but they had tonnes of cold cranking grunt, 110Ah capacity and lasted for years. I sold my V8 Discovery at 13 years old with the original Delphi battery still in it. The current ones are nowhere near as good, I bought a Genuine battery under the same number a few years ago which IIRC is a Varta under the skin, and it doesn't hold its charge particularly well.

[TSD]

Ian, your question is not so much 'how long is a piece of string?', but 'how long is that frayed and knotted ball of string?'   Everything is a compromise, and every use case is different. The spec numbers don't tell the whole story.

The CCA measure doesn't directly mean more cranking amps in real life. The current delivered is limited by the overall resistance (intentionally) of the battery, motor and wiring. If you give a Tdi starter motor unlimited current, it's perfectly capable of doing itself an injury trying to spin up the engine. (I had two motors burst their reduction gears trying to spin over my 2.8 before I twigged what was happening)

For the auxiliary battery, you can work out what your typical total load is likely to be between charges. e.g. fridge draws 4A for 12h, but only 'runs' 50% of the time, so 4 * 12 * (50/100) = 24Ah etc. Add up those loads, and try to have aux battery capacity at least twice that value, and preferably more. Deep discharges shorten battery life dramatically. Rule of thumb is to try not to discharge more than ~25% for best value (most Ah life per £), but that's rarely doable, so aim for the best you can. In other words, as everyone has said, just fit the biggest battery you can!

If you don't have a properly smart (and expensive) split charger, then I'd keep the start and aux batteries to be the same type, same size and same age. Relay type split chargers always mean joining two batteries with unequal state-of-charge, so one or other (probably both) won't be charged  as it would if on it's own. Not a major issue, but it's likely to have some noticeable effect over time. Simple diode splitters don't join the batteries directly, but much the same problem exists - the charging voltage can only be 'perfect' for one battery at most. Having identical batteries in similar condition doesn't solve this, it just tries to keep the difference to a minimum.

 

[ianmayco68]

Cheers TSD ,I was contemplating buying a c-tek  charger then I acquired this free when I bought an Eberspächer from eBay,

so was going to use this , so if I read it correctly you wouldn’t advise fitting a smaller starter battery then 1 or 2 larger leisure batteries keep them all the same size .

[TSD]

If you're going for loads of Ah, then keep all the paralleled batteries on the leisure side the same if you can (so they can share the load as equally as possible), but less important that the starter battery is the same, because the capacity on each side is different. Most often people are only adding a single second battery of 100Ah or so, and then it's easy to keep the starter and leisure sides exactly the same.

In truth, you may be over thinking it. None of this is "this works, this doesn't", it's more about getting the best performance in the space and the budget, and how long it all lasts - or rather how fast it degrades. The hurdle for deciding it's time to replace a battery is very variable. Years ago, when I was young and skint, I'd replace the battery when the car wouldn't start on a cold morning (and usually only after a fortnight of dragging it indoors every night to charge it!). These days I'm old and skint, but I'll replace a battery long before it's needed when I know it's starting to degrade, because I feel a battery is cheaper than a morning off work, and I get to choose what to spend, and change it in the dry weather.

When I used to go to all the LR shows and the like, and ran a hungry coolbox to keep the beer cold, I used to buy a big cheap battery from the local trade place, knowing I could cane it completely flat on a sunny weekend without worrying, and it could spend the whole week on a float charge in the shed. Even with nothing but abuse, it would probably last a couple of years, and the most it would cost me was one cheap battery (and a weekend of drinking warm beer).

 

[ianmayco68]

I probably am over thinking it , the battery fitted is starting to struggle on cold mornings which I’ve took as a sign it needs to be replaced as I live in a rural location and work in one as well so I can’t just jump on a bus , there is 2 identical batteries fitted which were billed as dual purpose so the idea was fit a new starter battery and then fit the 2 old ones as a battery bank and replace at a latter date .

[Troll Hunter]

Regarding sizes of batteries, I found the attached size details some time ago.  Hope somebody finds it useful.

Mike

Auto battery sizes.xlsx

[Peaklander]

Ian,

In my limited experience I have found that Tayna are very competitive although for a little Toyota car the local factors in Sheffield were just as good. However Eurocarparts might be worth a look if you are ready to buy. Their prices are only ever in the correct place with a discount code and even then you need to be careful. Anyway here is their email for today!

[ianmayco68]

Cheers Peaklander, I’ve just had a quick look and they seem very expensive even with the discount code , but I think I’ve heard before that they’re cheaper in the stores .

[Peaklander]

No they definitely aren’t cheaper in store. They won’t apply the discount code either. You have to click and collect. It’s a right pigs-ear of a business but can be handy if in a hurry and sometimes prices are ok 😀

[FridgeFreezer]

On 12/8/2019 at 12:15 AM, TSD said:

Yep, I remember. I think Fridgefreezer is in on the game as well now.

Yep, got the stop/start as the 2nd (house) battery in the ambulance and it's doing OK so far - on a day when it'd been worked hard we saw it pull 60A out of the alternator for quite a long time while recharging

[ianmayco68]

Well ordered one of these a yuasa 640hd cargo 100ah and 900cca so we’ll see how it goes £93 , was supposed to be £109 but until Friday you can get 15% off at Tayna but only through eBay though . 

[Anderzander]

Very educational read this for me - thanks everyone . It’s a shame red tops have dropped in quality ...

I have a ‘Super-Batt’ in my series - which I’m not too impressed with. It can struggle to crank the 200tdi if left for a while - and when it was cold it struggled quite a bit. Even with regular use it can be a little slow - and reading reviews shows people saying they often perform well below their stated figures. The main  thing it has going for it is that it fits.

I’d like something with a higher CCA figure that’s compact - which pretty much only points to the Optima. However I have hesitated as I read similar  of accounts to those above of their quality dipping ...

The scale of what I can fit seems to be around 300L 200w 180h

I could almost join the experiment and try a Varta AGM E39 start stop plus - it’s only 278, 190, but 190mm high. 70ah and 760 CCA 

 

 

[miketomcat]

My varta's are still going strong (about 6 years old) they crank the 200tdi no problems even when left for a week or so. My volt meter shows 11.8v at rest which drops a fair bit with glow plugs and cranking. I think mine are around 100ah.

Mike

[Anderzander]

That’s encouraging Mike - just need to find one that fits...and I’ve just found this, which should help:

https://www.tayna.co.uk/tools/battery-wizard

[Anderzander]

And that search recommends ...... 😳

https://www.tayna.co.uk/car-batteries/northstar/nsb-agm65/

[Daan]

Varta Blue dynamic is what I run:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/075-VARTA-D24-TYPE-027-Car-Battery-12V-60AH-540A-Replace-OEM-VW-JZW-915-105/252605667600?fits=Car+Make%3ALand+Rover|Model%3ADiscovery&epid=248945723&hash=item3ad0789910:g:LwcAAOSw1N1eqoig

Has been there since 2010. I cannot quite remember what amps the one I have has, but it is definitely this shape. I run a single battery, and that is used for everything including the rear winch.

Daan

[Snagger]

I had a blue Varta in my RRC that was useless after three years.  I won’t be using them again.  The Banner truck batteries have been the most reliable I’ve had, and are fairly cheap I think.

[Nonimouse]

I've been running Numax/Lucas for years (about 17) and I love them - never had any problems.

However, last week the Yasua in the Dub failed. Annoying as it was barely 11 years old, so I did some measuring and some research.  Minimum CCA required is 750. It's a big battery and it runs a lot of electrics, including the secondary AC/Heater.

I couldn't find a Numax/Lucas to fit - it's an odd space - long narrow and low. So I hunted around for a local source. Ended up going to Halfords, used my CSSC discount card on a Bosch Platinum - perfect size, 850 CCA and a five year warranty. All for £117.00 less 20% 

[henk]

>Has any one here fitted one of these? https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0658/7343/files/eng_fre_ger_a5.pdf?483