vinny Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 (edited) Ive a 200tdi engine that I’ve rebuilt and had the following work/parts done. polished crank new crank and big end bearings new con rod and piston honed cylinders and new rings block decked head skimmed valves lapped injectors and pump rebuilt new oil pump it has a 300 turbo and manifold and new cartridge new clutch ive checked and rechecked the timing and tappet clearance but still get a rattle from the injector side of the engine. I’ve also checked the vacuum pump and it’s perfect. I’ve drained the oil and it’s clear with no metal. During the rebuild the cam bearings were checked by the engine shop and were perfect the cam was checked and perfect. I didn’t check the cam followers when rebuilding. I have recently read about flat spots that develop on cam rollers but not on 200/300 engines. Ive checked the fuel pump and it’s fine also.... I’m completely out of ideas as to where this noise is coming from! It’s only present about 1000-1500 rpm It starts so easy and idles so well I don’t think it’s valve clearances. The head gasket is elring and supplied by the company that machined the block. The rattle is there with or without the clutch being pressed😩 Engine is from a 1992 110, its fitted to 80" bowler IMG_2084.mp4 Edited December 13, 2019 by vinny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Can't hear as am at work. Is the engine cold? Mine is quite rattly until it's good and warm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinny Posted December 13, 2019 Author Share Posted December 13, 2019 yes engine is cold. Its not the usual 200 tdi rattle, its a hard metallic knock and its only at low revs and then goes. Ive poured a lot of time and money into the car and engine (its taken 4 years to get it this far) I have to get to the bottom of it!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landy7 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 (edited) It's surely a sound that isn't supposed to be there! You've checked the valve clearance, but did you double checked the valve caps? They tend to break or crack. Edited December 13, 2019 by Koen110 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinny Posted December 13, 2019 Author Share Posted December 13, 2019 They were all there but I haven't looked for cracks in them, ill check over the weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurbie Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 try and remove the vacuumpump , and blank the hole with a plate ..... these pump's are sometimes very noisy , and when inspecting , there's nothing wrong to see .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lo-fi Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 It sounds and looks very dry at the top end, and I'm pretty sure that's the source of your noise. Have you verified good oil flow to cam and rockers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinny Posted December 13, 2019 Author Share Posted December 13, 2019 18 minutes ago, lo-fi said: It sounds and looks very dry at the top end, and I'm pretty sure that's the source of your noise. Have you verified good oil flow to cam and rockers? yes top end was wet with oil, I ran the engine again after the video and the under side of the bonnet and block was sprayed with oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinny Posted December 13, 2019 Author Share Posted December 13, 2019 54 minutes ago, hurbie said: try and remove the vacuumpump , and blank the hole with a plate ..... these pump's are sometimes very noisy , and when inspecting , there's nothing wrong to see .... I’ll give it a go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 look at the rocker arm pads that work on the valve stem caps to, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 So you've skimmed the block? You compensate with a thicker head gasket? Difficult to locate the area with general engine noise, you thought about pulling the injectors and turning the engine over on the starter see if you can hear anything odd or give you an area to focus on, from the vid it does sound like the back of the engine but can be misleading. Id try isolating injectors one by one too see if it changes anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 Using a stethoscope (long screwdriver) to narrow down the location might help to pinpoint the source . Tiny air leaks on the fuel supply to the FIP will make the pump sound like a load of washers in a blender while still allowing it to run apparently ok . cheers Steve b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinny Posted December 14, 2019 Author Share Posted December 14, 2019 12 hours ago, Maverik said: So you've skimmed the block? You compensate with a thicker head gasket? Difficult to locate the area with general engine noise, you thought about pulling the injectors and turning the engine over on the starter see if you can hear anything odd or give you an area to focus on, from the vid it does sound like the back of the engine but can be misleading. Id try isolating injectors one by one too see if it changes anything. Yes the block was lightly skimmed, the engine shop supplied the gasket, I did ask how they spec’d them and was told it’s the piston height on the block that determines the thickness. how do I isolate the injectors? Remove the height pressure pipe? the engine sounds really good at idle it’s only 1000-1500 rpm that the rattle appears then goes again over 1500 rpm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinny Posted December 14, 2019 Author Share Posted December 14, 2019 12 hours ago, steve b said: Using a stethoscope (long screwdriver) to narrow down the location might help to pinpoint the source . Tiny air leaks on the fuel supply to the FIP will make the pump sound like a load of washers in a blender while still allowing it to run apparently ok . cheers Steve b I’ll try the screwdriver, all the fuel pipes are new Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 44 minutes ago, vinny said: Yes the block was lightly skimmed, the engine shop supplied the gasket, I did ask how they spec’d them and was told it’s the piston height on the block that determines the thickness. how do I isolate the injectors? Remove the height pressure pipe? the engine sounds really good at idle it’s only 1000-1500 rpm that the rattle appears then goes again over 1500 rpm Yes Tdi head gasket thickness comes in 4 variations to take account of the piston height. there is a Tdi engine head gasket chart in our tech archive, in the engine section IIRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 To isolate the injector just crack the main supply pipe nut on each one see if it changes anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 12 hours ago, vinny said: Yes the block was lightly skimmed, the engine shop supplied the gasket, I did ask how they spec’d them and was told it’s the piston height on the block that determines the thickness. True, but you also had the head skimmed, which LR prohibit. The head is fine with a light skim, but the valve seats need to be recessed further to keep the valves out of contact with the pistons, and if you skim much, injector and glow plug clearances may also become a problem. A thicker gasket sorts out the clearances but would also reduce compression, so is not the preferred route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinny Posted December 15, 2019 Author Share Posted December 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Snagger said: True, but you also had the head skimmed, which LR prohibit. The head is fine with a light skim, but the valve seats need to be recessed further to keep the valves out of contact with the pistons, and if you skim much, injector and glow plug clearances may also become a problem. A thicker gasket sorts out the clearances but would also reduce compression, so is not the preferred route. Didn’t know that, learn something everyday . 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 Had my 200tdi head skimmed to make sure it was straight, used the same 2 hole head gasket, not had any problems with having the head done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 I've had many Tdi heads skimmed without any issues at all , I use proper engine re-con specialists to do the work and if necessary the valves are lowered to suit . Don't forget a skim is only going to be .010" or so . Also decking the block face by "x" and fitting a gasket that is standard + "x" does not change the compression ratio at all . Double check your fuel lines and also the FIP body return pipe nut with the small hole in , just to be sure it's not small amounts of air in the FIP body , video soundtracks are pretty vague but it does sound like that . cheers Steve b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 On 12/15/2019 at 4:36 PM, western said: Had my 200tdi head skimmed to make sure it was straight, used the same 2 hole head gasket, not had any problems with having the head done. It depends how much is taken off. I had my 200 head skimmed too, but I did go one gasket thicker without noticeable effects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 On 12/15/2019 at 5:36 PM, steve b said: Also decking the block face by "x" and fitting a gasket that is standard + "x" does not change the compression ratio at all . Correct, because the thicker gasket replaces the lost block material and keeps the rocker shaft, valve seats and thus closed valve heads the same height above the piston crowns, but skimming the head without cutting the valve seats back will lower the valve datum towards the piston crowns, so if you skim enough off the head, contact can occur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 On 12/15/2019 at 1:36 PM, steve b said: I use proper engine re-con specialists to do the work and if necessary the valves are lowered to suit . As I said in the same post Steve b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Sorry, Steve, I was trying to reiterate what you said and explain the technical reason, not disagree with your comment! 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) No worries , the finer points of keyboard communication are not always easy to get across (or read !) , looking forward to fining out what this noise is . cheers Steve b Edited December 17, 2019 by steve b edit to make more sense !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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