White smoke - 300TDi

[Peaklander]

Right, got an update (and tea is late). There is oil pooling in the bottom of the intercooler. On tipping it out, it half filled an aerosol cap. So it was a fair amount.

I can't see even if the cyclone separator has failed, that there can be so much oil in those recirculating gases. I think it has to be the turbo and I have removed it ready to take it to AET near Wakefield to see what they say. It was fitted in August 2018 and since then, without checking, I've probably done 6,000 miles (only).

How so much oil can circulate around and not cause a bigger issue, I don't know.

I really appreciate the help from everyone. Thanks

[Gazzar]

What other way can the oil get into the intercooler? It's got to be the turbo, doesn't it? 

What's the air filter like?

[Gazzar]

I'm amazed that the engine hasn't been running on its own oil.

How tight were the cylinder head bolts?

[Peaklander]

Air filter was replaced early summer 2018 and is still clean. The head bolts were tight. I haven't undone any before but they all needed a very good tug with a 1/2" breaker bar. (I used the correct sequence too). The workshop looking at the head say that the surface looks to be in very good condition.

Edit: the turbo oil supply and return pipes were new when it was re-fitted. They are clear now too.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Peaklander

[monkie]

59 minutes ago, Gazzar said:

What other way can the oil get into the intercooler? It's got to be the turbo, doesn't it? 

What's the air filter like?

It can also carry through from the breathing system if crankcase pressure is high. 

[steve b]

Indeed , and that supports Red90's theory of bore wear or ring damage . I would be a bit suspicious of the scuffing on your pic , the outcome may well be a deglaze in situ and new rings all round . I think pulling that piston would show something - blow by probably ?

cheers

Steve b

[cackshifter]

Considering the amount of oil in the engine half an aerosol cap in the intercooler isn't a ridiculous amount. @Peaklander, was the engine producing any smoke?

 

[Peaklander]

I'm no seasoned Land Rover owner so I have little experience. In the dark with a vehicle behind, you can see some smoke but it's not really noticeable in the day but I have been wondering if things are ok. I had seen more oil in the airways than I was comfortable with and was keeping an eye on it. The trigger to investigate "the engine" though, was the white smoke that prompted this thread but of course the probable causes of that and then this issue, are different - I assume.

It was only yesterday when I thought that there might be oil in the bores that I decided to lift the head. In spite of my lack of experience I think this is excessive. Oil was pooling on the intake side of the turbo, the intercooler has it, the inlet ports have it and the pistons too.

Whether its the turbo or bores well who knows? I hope I can get the turbo checked and then we will see. The funny thing is that I was wondering just a few days ago about getting one of those leak-down kits or at least a compression tester. I was trying to buy a Sykes Pickavant kit on FB and then the guy pulled it.

Anyway it's in bits now and the opportunity to test the lump as a whole has now gone.

If I push that piston out, what will I be looking for, a faulty ring? Wouldn't that cause far more damage?

 

[monkie]

I would consider seeing a haze behind you in headlights at night is normal for a Tdi. 

It's hard to say where the oil has come from at this stage, how oily is the breather pipe where it enters the induction system? 

With the pistons out look for scuffing on the skirts, stuck rings, sooty scorch marks as evidence of gasses getting past the rings, scoring and/or glazing on the bores.

Were the injectors oily on the body that's is located within the head when you pulled them out? 

[Peaklander]

These are the injectors immediately after removal, with #1 on the right. So #4 was wet in the cylinder but there was plenty of oil around outside #2 which is next to the separator and drain pipe. for a few week I had been trying to find out where the oil on the outside of the engine has been coming from and had already been around the breather pipe connections, checking them and I cleaned the separator.

 

 

I will take some photos of the other bores to show that the honing marks are still present. There's no step at the top of any bores. I do understand the advice about pulling the piston in the #2 bore which has the slight mark. It makes me slightly nervous as I will have to then decide if I should pull the other pistons, re-hone that bore and not the others etc. etc. I will need some guidance on that.

First of all today I will arrange to try to get the turbo checked out. Also I'll hear back about the head checks. Then read up about releasing pistons.

[Snagger]

I doubt that oil is from the turbo or breather - there is just too much of it, and oil through the induction system would be burned off as the engine won’t be breathing and the turbo won’t be getting oil pressure when the engine is shut down.  I think it’s either leaking past the valve stemns or dripped as you removed the head.  That doesn’t exclude turbo or breathing problems from creating your smoke, but I just don’t see that much oil accumulating in the cylinders as the engine does a few turns without fuel on shutdown.

[blowmeover]

It would also have been burning black/blue smoke while running, not white.  White on start up could be a number of things, retarded ignition, leaking injectors, glow plugs not working, low fuel pressure , the puff of black smoke you mentioned could well be a build up of oil leaking into the bores between startups and burning off, oil leaking into the bores will come from above.

[cackshifter]

Just in case it affects your decision on anything I think those pistons are +040. Did you remove the injectors with the head on or off?

 

[Peaklander]

Oh so already been re-bored?  Took injectors out first as was chasing the white smoke. It was just when I was about to refit the shiny new ones that I saw the oil.

Edit: The people at AET Turbos had one look at the turbo this morning and said without a doubt that it's perfect. For there to be any issue with the seals there would be play on the impeller and there is none. So the oil is coming from somewhere else.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Peaklander
Turbo detail

[Peaklander]

I tried to take more photos of the bores but it's very hard with poor light and shadows but I'm going to remove the pistons as I really need to get to the bottom of this (no pun intended). So the front axle is on big stands to give me a little more room underneath. At least I'm inside the garage out of the weather.

I've drained the oil, dropped the sump and removed the strainer pipes. So now I just have to undo the bearing caps and push them out and go steady, trying to see what things look like as they pop out. Cup of tea first and then I'll be back with an update 😀

[cackshifter]

Good job you are in the dry. Have some pieces of tube to slip over the big end bolts when you remove the caps, if you can - helps avoid marring things nearby. 

[cackshifter]

I have wondered whether the oil ran in when you took the injectors out. But that doesn't explain the oil in the ports.

[Peaklander]

I have removed the pistons and noted orientation of the caps and taken some pics. I have yet to look at the shells but the rings appear sound but I assume they wear, maybe getting thinner?

The company looking at the head say:

1. Valves all ok on a vacuum test

2. Guides measure ok

3. Between 2 and 3 was a tiny deviation (low?) but they have removed this with the thinnest of skims. Don’t know what they have taken off but negligible they say

4. Rather embarrassingly, all the stem seals were up and that’s my oil they believe. I had such a saga changing these in 2016 I think and I can’t understand why. I had even gone to Turners and got a second set. Anyhow they have fitted another genuine set and say that these won’t come off.

5. The head is being washed and I can pick up tomorrow

 

They also asked me to take them the pistons which they will measure. So I’ll keep them in sets and take the shells too.

I will need to find a way of checking the bores as I don’t have anything. Also I will try some more bore pictures for your consideration as to any honing that might be needed.

Thanks for the support.

 

 

[EeEk]

ANy oil in the cylinders arrived there when the engine was off....if it was running the oil would be burnt.....thats what diesels are. Oil burners

Must have ran in from the valve stems or the inlet manifold....it didnt run up hill

I blown head gasket...near no 8 push rod is common and blows oil through the breather in to the intake.  or just blow by in a worn engine.   or Turbo worn. 

Heater plugs are of no importance unless you live in the artic.  My 300tdi starts white with frost straight away in North Scotland and the heater plugs arent even wired up.

 

[Bowie69]

If your stem seals are up, then I reckon you have found a major part of the problem.

There was a thread a couple of years about about 300TDI white smoke and seals, was that yours?

[Ex Member]

4 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

If your stem seals are up, then I reckon you have found a major part of the problem.

There was a thread a couple of years about about 300TDI white smoke and seals, was that yours?

I will be not so confident.  The exhaust ports are always under pressure other than maybe idle, so leakage is into the valve gallery, not oil out, so no white smoke.  Intake only leaks in off boost and this would burn cleanly and you would not notice.  This is not like a petrol with the intake running at how vacuum.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Red90

[Bowie69]

Well, quite easy for oil to run down once the engine is laid up -I know this at first hand as my Audi leaves a lovely trail down the lane first thing in the morning.

[Peaklander]

Don't forget that the initial reason for the thread was white smoke and I always thought that was timing and or injector related. The timing is OK but a couple of injectors were not, as mentioned higher up the thread. I replaced the glowplugs because they were out and may as well have x4 working.

As for the mark on cylinder 2 bore, this is the piston from there and the second photo is one of the others. As you can see, there is gunk at the scraper ring (bottom one) and it is sticky to turn. I imagine that might be the cause. The whole piston looks dirtier.

As I said before, the mark is as imperceptible to a finger as are the honing swirls but I think that the latter are there to hold lubricant and if they can, then those ring marks could perhaps cause a problem.

[Peaklander]

43 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

If your stem seals are up, then I reckon you have found a major part of the problem.

There was a thread a couple of years about about 300TDI white smoke and seals, was that yours?

Yes it was - as I said up the page, it was a challenge then and it has come back to bite me.

[smallfry]

If you think half a capful of oil is a lot, think again. Freelander TD4 (BMW) will have a LOT more oil in the intercooler and intake system than that. I can ONLY see haze in following headlamps when I boot it. I have to top up the oil quite often.

As a comparison, my 04 Astra at 275k miles and still on its original turbo, uses NO oil between changes, and when I took off the intercooler for the first time last summer, there was not even a teaspoonful of oil in it 

On this engine (TD4) it is caused by the breather system and high crankcase pressure, which itself is caused by piston blowby, which I believe is a piston ring problem.

When I worked in the plant/agricultural industry, oil consumption was a common problem, and it was caused by allowing the engine to run either at idle or low load for too long when the engine was new. IE namby pamby running in. Diesel engines need LOAD to bed in the piston rings, otherwise the bores will glaze and also ruin the rings.

Also, overspeccing the oil is known to result in the same thing

For it to be producing white smoke, and not blue, it would be burning a LOT of oil.