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MS new build questions. help!


mikeh501
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Hi all,

I've finally got around to fitting the MS kit from nigel after looking at it for probably 3 years now lol. Its actually looking pretty good and I seem to have got the basics working. The engine isnt running yet as I havent plumbed in the fuel pipes but it is cranking and the laptop is talking to the MS and seeing the gauges moving. huzzah! Next step is fuel and see if it actually starts, but given im waiting on a few bits I have a couple of questions.

Q: The coolant temp sensor on the top of the engine is reporting 17 deg celsius to MS as reported in tuner studio. Any ideas? obviously its about 6 deg outside and the engine hasnt been run and doesnt actually have water in it yet.

Q: The RPM when cranking is showing 140rpm or thereabouts. This sound about right? and does this mean the VR sensor is wired correctly?

Q: Is there a way of seeing 'spark' inside tuner studio? i.e. knowing if the plugs are firing etc without whipping one out.

Q: Ive watched a video showing the tooth logger, and when ive tried this on my engine it doesnt looks like it should. What do you set the sampling millseconds to? default is 500 iirc. or is it because the engine isnt actually running only cranking.

thanks in advance and im sure more questions to follow lol.

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First off I assume this is MS1 + EDIS as per Nige's usual kits?

  1. 17deg is within a margin of error. I wouldn't worry unless it is vastly wrong or goes the wrong way or something.
  2. Cranking RPM sounds fine, VR sensor probably can't say at this stage but it's at least connected to the right thing!
  3. Nope - if the ECU thinks it's cranking the EDIS WILL be trying to make sparks.
  4. Tooth logger doesn't work with EDIS because the EDIS is the thing that "sees" the teeth and processes the VR signal, it only passes basic RPM pulses on to the ECU so the ECU doesn't "see" tooth times. Also unless you've got a problem you wouldn't need it.
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Thanks that brill. Yes its MS1+EDIS as per Niges standard kit. Its a 200tdi 90 which im rechassising and fitting the v8. The v8 is a bit funky; its a stage 3 recon from RPI (I bought it from their customers receiver) and has carbon plenum and a front end Nige isnt familiar with. hence some of the noob questions as I may just be missing stuff.

Im just doing the fuelling and got a bit confused on how it fits together.

Side tank > RRC in tank pump > RR Classic fuel filter > FSE RR regulator > Fuel rail > Return line > Tank

is this correct?

Q: Reading online im not sure if it needs the FSE Rising rate regulator. It came with the engine itself (RPI engine). Ive not attached the vacuum so assume it wont 'rise'? Its got a gauge on it which I thought would be useful.

Q: Ive seen other setups which use the standard fuel pressure regulator (etc8494) and this seems to go on the return line. Should my regulator go before the rail or after? or should I ditch the FSE one and just fit the standard one? or do i need both!

Q: Ive got this brass T piece which I think is called a fuel pressure regulator adapter, and unsure what its for. My fuel rail seems to have one already in it on the return end.

https://shop.v8engines.com/adjustable-fuel-pressure-regulator-for-hotwire-efi-system-75-p.asp    << the bit in the middle on the picture.

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Yes your fuel plumbing is correct.

No you don't need a rising-rate regulator as they're a horrible bodge to cause more fuel than the ECU "expects" to go in by raising the pressure. You've got a tunable ECU now so if you want more fuel you just increase the amount of fuel in that bit of the fuel map! :D That's what it's for!

The regulator works by controlling how much fuel gets returned, so yes it goes at the end of the fuel rail (Pump -> Fuel rail -> Regulattor -> Return)

Dunno, not sure, you don't need that junk just fit the standard regulator for your engine.

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  • 1 month later...

yes, long story about how i got hold of it but its an RPI 4.6 stage 3 with carbon plenum, liners, x bolted etc etc.

Anybody know what these coolant connections do/goto? or can they be sealed up?

Assume this one is for heating the throttle body or something, but i cant see a complementary outlet. Any ideas?

O08ielS.jpg

This one is an exit from the pump but not sure where it goes. assume i can blank off, or is it the bypass for themostat, or is the heater matrix outlet for that?

w0OsafE.jpg

 

thanks! had it idling nicely yesterday, so finishing off plumbing and PS pipes before I can get it running up to temp.

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  • 2 weeks later...

evening all. wonder if you can help with getting the right exhaust bits I need.

Its a 90. NAS chassis. Cast D2 v8 headers. Ive fitted these downpipes with cats https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LAND-ROVER-DISCOVERY-Mk2-4-0-Catalytic-Converter-98-to-01-BM-WCD000200-WCD001220/233425201978?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Then bought this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LAND-ROVER-DEFENDER-90-300TDI-CENTRE-REAR-EXHAUST-ESR4526-ESR4527-DA4304/123257807439?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

As you might have guessed it doesnt fit :) The downpipes fit nicely. They come out towards the rear of the xfer box. The problem is that the centre box is way too long, probably needs to be half a long. The other issues is that the rear pipe fouls the brackets which hang down under the chassis. see pic.

PLH61990NASHDX-d.jpg

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  • 11 months later...

Hi all, been a while since ive updated this. Its moved on quite a bit since the last photos and questions, however the engine side although now all plumbed up isnt running right, and never has really.

I had it idling a few months back but it was missing on at least 2 id say, was running mega rich, and would eventually die after a minute maybe. I diagnosed this to a wiring issue with the coolant sensor as it was reading -60 in tunerstudio. My batteries were also knackered which was causing a ticking on the fuel relay and just generally wasnt helping.

Ive since rewired all the ECU/EDIS end wiring (long story but didnt trust my soldering and was attempting to diagnose the CTS). I've also built up all the plumbing inc coolant, oil cooler etc etc. Ive also replaced both batteries.

Ok, now today ive got some fresh fuel and this is what im seeing.

1. Its still heavily missing. Could even be 4 cylinders down. Sounds like a bag of spanners, maybe a bit better when revved.

2. Wont start without giving it full throttle

3. Wont idle at all. dies as soon as the throttle is closed.

4. Still throwing out loads of unburnt fuel. Makes your eyes burn in the garage after a couple of mins lol.

5. CTS is now showing ambient temp. So i must have fixed that.

6. TPS which was perfect now shows 11% when throttle closed. not sure what ive done.

7. AFR gauge on tunerstudio is showing 18-19 in the red, which obviously tallies with the smoke/missing?

Ive got a tunerstudio log file here. Will this help diagnose it?

https://1drv.ms/u/s!ArN3fYLCKKQ2gpNfh5bPHTe-uGIr9w?e=Zuz1zN

So MS gurus, where do I look next?

 

 

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Plug wires are in the wrong place, I am 80% sure this is your problem.

It is misfiring, so the AFR is reading lean, you have unburnt fuel from the missing cylinders, and this is what is burning your eyes.

All the other things are symptoms of this problem....

I know you will say you have checked them..... but I will be the first to admit I have checked them a dozen times and them come back to them the next day and seen which was wrong immediately!

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11 hours ago, mikeh501 said:

Just having a looksie in tunder studio...

My "required fuel" parameter is set at 20. this sound correct for a 4.6? in the dialog its set to 350ci which is obviously bigger. Injector flow is 30.

Hard to say without knowing what injectors RPI puts in a "stage 3".

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REQ_FUEL is not a magic number - the Megasquirt uses a fairly simple calculation for each squirt of the injectors, REQ_FUEL is just a "base" number that then gets multiplied (or divided) by the corrections for air temp, coolant temp, throttle position, and the value from the fuel table etc...  So, you could have a REQ_FUEL of 10, 20 or 30 and different numbers in your fuel map and it would still end up with the same answer for how long to fire the injector for.

First thing - IGNORE the lambda (EGO) sensor, as said above it is NOT reliable until your engine is firing on all cylinders and fuelling in approximately the right sort of area. Unburnt fuel will coat the sensor element making it read lean when in fact it's either too rich or just mis-firing. USE YOUR NOSE. If your sensor is an expensive wideband one, I'd remove it, blank the hole, and disable EGO correction until you've stopped squirting raw fuel down the exhaust or you may kill the sensor.

Second - IGNORE secondary problems with the tuning. Things like cold-start, warmup, stumbling on acceleration, idle valve settings, etc. are only worth tuning once you've actually got the basics working, otherwise you'll be shifting the whole baseline around and your carefully tuned warmup values will end up totally wrong. Get it to run & idle smoothly FIRST ignoring all the other parameters.

Going through your list:

1. Heavily missing / 4cyls down - this is your #1 problem, until you make absolutely certain that your coils & HT leads are wired in the right order (remember there's two ways to bu66er the coil wiring - LT and HT sides) every other problem is totally irrelevant. If you're a bank down it could also be injector wiring so maybe double-check that. 99% of MS problems with a fresh build are wiring, and 50% of those are with wiring that has been checked two or three times and is "definitely correct".

2. Full throttle puts the ECU into "flood clear" mode and it will not fire the injectors. If it ONLY starts this way, either your fuelling (cranking/priming) is way too high, or you've got a stuck, leaky, or mis-wired injector or two or three...

3. Doesn't matter, see comments above

4. See #1 and #2

5. Good.

6. Doesn't matter, MS only cares about how fast the value changes, not the absolute number.

7. See comments above - EGO reading is probably totally wrong, and you can't have a true AFR gauge with a narrowband O2 sensor so the values are irrelevant in normal operation as well.

Solve issue #1 before you even think about ANYTHING else, otherwise you're just wasting time & effort.

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Many many thanks!

So spent an hour this morning confirming my plug leads are correct. I think they are, at least as far as the picture nigel provides says so. I think the below is correct and Ive written down the colour codes for each of the brown/colour wires and these seem to be at least on the correct coil pack. Not entirely sure which way they go either side of the power wire though.

rScH9bp.jpg

39Vc6Uo.jpg

 

Ive taken a short video from the start this morning. Im tickling the throttle here constaly although didnt have to do the flood clear/foot down thing.

 

Next steps:

1. Ive bought some spark check things which show a light if its sparking. ill try these to confirm each plug is actually firing.

2. Given the advice above, how do you actually check each coil or injector is firing? would a multimeter work? should I unplug each injector and see it makes any difference? Whats the proper way?

Thanks for all the thelp

 

Edited by mikeh501
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If they're stock EDIS wiring colours and Ford coils the plugs should look like this:

IMG_2924.JPGIMG_2928.JPG

 

This is on the front of the engine but shows you the coil wiring & cylinder numbers:

coil_wiring.jpg

 

Coil A is Brown/White

Coil B is Brown/Orange

Coil C is Brown/Green

Coil D is Brown/Black

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Easy when you have the tools! Got the spark testers on all four plugs and ive got 4! cylinders with no spark at all. All those cylinders correspond to coils C & D. Cylinders 2,4,1,5. So thats narrowed it down to either the coil pack or more likely the wiring.

So to check this. The centre wire white/purple is a power wire. Ill check with a multimeter but I can assume give the other coil is working then its probably not this. That leaves the br/gr and br/bl ones. I need to check but if these were the wrong way around would it cause this? or is it more likely a break in one of the wires? How would I test it?

I also used the mechanics stethoscope and can hear very clearly ticking coming from all 8 injectors so it looks like this side is working fine.

 

Many many thanks!!! feels like im nearly there.

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Check the coil pack by swapping the low voltage connectors between the two packs, and see if the fault moves, if it does, the pack is fine, and you can chase the fault with the wiring.

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You were right. just checked and no +12v to centre pin on that coil. All those +12v come from the same place and im getting +12v at other coil and fuel pump so must be that wire or termination. The other 2 pin colours were correct way around. Getting there!

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