MS new build questions. help!

[FridgeFreezer]

3 hours ago, mikeh501 said:

You were right.

Wow, my 1 right answer per year came early in 2021

[mikeh501]

Right then right then! It turned out to be a problem with the common positive. It now runs on eight!!

now idles better but still cuts out after a few minutes. Kinda stumbles occasionally on tick over. Sounds like it’s missing but only a little.

I ran the temp up and the smoke was still present but unsure if it was just burning off bits of oil. It’s basically a first start for this engine.

I’ll do a perm fix on the wiring tomorrow and get the computer back in it and see if it’s happier.

 

im sure there are more questions to come lol

[Bowie69]

Good news, all simple really

[mikeh501]

Does it sound right?

[FridgeFreezer]

"Video removed by uploader"... doesn't sound right to me

[mikeh501]

Not sure what went wrong with vid. I’ve got a new one. So took all the plugs out. All of them very black and scooted. Black smoke coming out exhaust.

im thinking timing next? I tried setting the spark trim. When I set to positive 45 it actually runs better and will idle albeit still not rock steady. Still black smoke though. 
 

is my timing fubar?

[mikeh501]

 

[mikeh501]

hmmm I altered the req-fuel setting from 20 to 10. No more black smoke. Idle much happier. 

Niges kits are preloaded with an appropriate map aren’t they?

still think my timing must be wrong also

where next? Check timing

[FridgeFreezer]

I'd suggest you're still way over-fuelling - as I said earlier, there's no "right" answer for req_fuel, and if you've got silly flow-rate injectors your knocking it down is probably pulling everything in closer to the right sort of area.

Nige's settings & map will be either very close to "right" for a stock engine or, if you asked him nicely and told him your injector specs etc., he might've put custom settings in for you.

There is a "scale VE" function in MT (and maybe TS) that you can tell it what injectors the req_fuel was calculated for, what injectors you've now got fitted, and it will work out a new req_fuel for you, but honestly if 10 is feeling about right that's probably good enough.

Once it's in the ballpark yes I'd suggest making sure your timing is bang on what the ECU thinks it is.

[mikeh501]

Spent a bit of time on it today. Would cough into life, idle then die under load....... spent an hour fiddling till i realised it was out of fuel. ffs lol.

Also got an original tune from Nigel. Theres definately differences between them. Need more fuel then ill try it again. req-fuel is the same 20, but injector milliseconds is 10 on the current one and 5 on nige's. also injector are alternating on mine and simultaneous on niges. 

Still need to check timing as this must be out. ballache now the vehicle is now built up. hey ho.

thanks for the help.

[FridgeFreezer]

In theory alternate fire helps even out fuel pressure fluctuations (not sure how useful it really is), but I think you may need to check the details of squirts-per-cycle so you don't end up squirting half as much as you need, this could explain the 5ms/10ms thing... or to put it another way, be careful what you interpret from what you see on screen

[mikeh501]

yeah, i did a bit of bed time reading of the 'mega manual'. i read the bit about improving fuel rail pressure on alternative vs simulatneous, all very interesting. it got a bit too much for my brain at that point as supposedly the outcome of volume of fuel injected is the same across a cycle unless your bumping up against dead time - my head hurts lol.

Anyhow, im just going to load in Niges base tune for a 4.6 and try it. At least i know that map is 95% good and can rule out that stuff.

[mikeh501]

Just a little update. the landie is at a local garage having a few bits done which I didnt have the ability to sort as we progress to the finish! Anyhow little snag, the mechanic is putting the clutch hydraulic lines in place and has discovered the gearbox input shaft doesnt actually properly engage with the spigot bearing! feck. After a bit of googling and removal of the box it looks like ive fitted an LT77 v8 bellhousing which is 25mm longer than the r380 version. doh. The guy who recon'd the gearbox gave it to me so I didnt question it. hey ho.

The crazy world of bellhousing now front and centre, the difference between the casting number and part number is blowing my mind. Ive found a few on ebay and ashcroft but i really want to be sure i get the right one. Any advice beyond i need a 275mm r380 v8 bellhousing? e.g. the ashcroft one says it doenst have the threaded holes to fit the half moon cover! how can i be sure i get the right one.

[FridgeFreezer]

Aside from measurement or just buying the right part direct from Ashcrofts I don't know, if the bottom doesn't have threaded holes for the cover I'd guess you can either nut & bolt through plain holes, or drill & tap? As long as it joins a V8 engine to an R380 and is 275mm long I'm not sure how wrong it can be unless it's a P38 part with the concentric clutch setup.

[mikeh501]

Evening all. Just a little checkin on the longest landie build ever, or so it feels!

The landie is still at the garage (6 weeks!) and they are doing an hour on it between jobs, its slow going. Anyhow it looks like the mechanicing side is pretty much done, theyve sorted breaks, various bits id got wrong here and there; the new 275mm bellhousing is sorted, hydraulics etc etc. 

Anyhow I went over as he said bring the laptop! They dont know about megasquirt so relying on their nose etc. The guy has double checked the timing and its as per Niges MS manual. TDC on no1. missing tooth is 5 teeth clockwise from VR. I went over with the laptop and landie is running just about it, still mega mega rich as it was previously. Plugs are all coked up and wet.

We did some messing about changing req_fuel and spark trim angle adjustments. Like previously we set req_fuel from 20, to 5 and it idled much sweeter, less/no smoke and it would rev pretty freely. This was going swimingly but looks like the cats are dead, and one now rattles and the other is in bits having been blown out of the exhaust! ho hum.

So ive been racking my brains on why its so so rich so...

* Ive doulbe checked req_fuel and I think 20 is the right number. 280 cubicinches, 18lb injectors, 8 cylinders etc. 20 is the right number just like Niges base map. So where next....

* Ive now had the engine up to operating temps so take WUE out of the picture etc.

* This is my VE table. It looks fairly 'normal'?. Ive also played back a log from january (same symptoms). The bit that strikes me is that the MAP is up in the 80s at about 1200rpm. From some googling, should I not be seeing much lower MAP which in turn should deliver less fuel?

* My narrowband o2 sensor is reading 17/18. Mega lean, but im told you cant trust it when its not in normal environment. Is my ECU trying to put more fuel in to compensate for detected lean condition? How can you tell and how to turn it off?

* This is my spark settings, Someone got a link or explanation of trigger  angle + addition, and trim angle? Do these look right? 

Any of the above hypothesis make sense? should i be looking elsewhere? Theres only so many variables which go into the delivered pules width.

 

[Bowie69]

Suspect you still have a misfire, as you know this will push unburnt fuel out the exhaust (they eye burning stench) yet show a lean condition on the oxygen sensor. 

Check that all 8 exhaust manifold  branches get hot soon after starting, if not, that hole is dead. 

Also, get a new set of plugs, they really don't like being drowned and sooty. 

[mikeh501]

Just doing some googling.... seems the original stepper motor is a problem, and my MS kit included a PWM control. Ive got a photo of my engine and the stepper on the throttle body looks to be in place.... is this my problem? I know they dont self close etc.

 

 

[mikeh501]

10 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Suspect you still have a misfire, as you know this will push unburnt fuel out the exhaust (they eye burning stench) yet show a lean condition on the oxygen sensor. 

Check that all 8 exhaust manifold  branches get hot soon after starting, if not, that hole is dead. 

Also, get a new set of plugs, they really don't like being drowned and sooty. 

Got 16 on order lol. I think your right, but whilst its continuing to overfuel its going to get wet and sooty again. Any thoughts on idle KPA and the stepper?

[Bowie69]

When idling at 850, map would be lower, 40-50, 80 at 1200, who knows, sounds high but I never idle my engine like that! 

Stepper will be staying open, hence 1200rpm, but wont be affecting mixture. You need to remove and block the ports, there was a post on here about it, maybe from @FridgeFreezer?

Fuel table - trim it all down where the engine is running, and see if it helps, but honestly, probably not, you need to fix the obvious misfire first. 

[mikeh501]

Thanks for coming back. Feel like chasing my tail and out of my depth lol

 

my assumption is Any misfires and general unhappiness is caused by the over fuelling. So it’s chicken and egg right? I need to fix the fuelling to fix the misfire?

thanks for all the help! 

[Bowie69]

Could be a dead plug, dead injector, dead ht lead, coil, or a  new wiring fault. 

[Chazza]

I agree with Bowie.

Always check timing and spark are perfect first, before fiddling with the fuel; and that applies to any petrol engine and fuel system,

Cheers Charlie

[Quagmire]

I'd point an infrared temp gun at the manifolds where each exhaust port exits the head and see if you have any major variance in those. That'll show if any particular cylinder is off. If one is, then you can try swapping the injector with another and see if the fault follows it. If it does then you have a bad injector, if not then it's likely to be spark. After spark is ruled out then it's mechanical.

But before you get to that it sounds to me like the MAP reading is way too high. At 1200 idle I would expect to see more like 30kPa or less. The 3.5 in my 90  idles at 800rpm and has around 35kPa, in my Rover P6 I get nearer to 40kPa at 700rpm. Deffo no pinholes in your map hose?

[mikeh501]

Thanks for all the replies guys, much appreciated.

On the ignition side, i've checked a bunch of stuff and running out of ideas. checked timing as per niges instructions (no1 TDC, tooth +5) but cant confirm as 4.6 has no timing marks for strobe. All new ford coils and leads. Wiring checked on these as I did have a coil down, but now sorted. leads all confirmed as being to the right cylinders. Plugs were new (the whole engine is new) but obviously have suffered with all the richness and misfires when testing. Ive had to wire brush them a few times.

Ok, two sets of plugs on order lol. Belt and braces. Niges recommendation on type bpr6es. Im sure it will help but cant imagine it will fix it. we will see.

I think the idle KPA is definately a problem, and given the IAC stepper is still present that must be a likely cause. Ive read they dont self close so could well be open and drawing air in. Not sure this is related to over fuelling but cant be helping given fuelling at 80-90 kpa is much higher than 30-40. I think im going to remove the PWM too and block that off to rule it out as well. If im still struggling then ill replace the MAP hose too. On checking some mega logs from last year it looks like MAP has always been too high. Nige sells a blanking plate unless theres an easier way to block it up?

I tried spraying a bit of WD40 on the headers which was inconclusive as I couldnt keep it idling (too rich) while also spraying the headers. Needed another person. It does idle now (at lower req_fuel) so ill buy one of those infrared testers and check again.

 

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Why if the Trigger wheel is on No 5 past engine at TDC have you got "20" in Trim settings ?

 

should be "0" if wheel set correctly ???

 

Nige