MS new build questions. help!

[mikeh501]

3 hours ago, Hybrid_From_Hell said:

Why if the Trigger wheel is on No 5 past engine at TDC have you got "20" in Trim settings ?

 

should be "0" if wheel set correctly ???

 

Nige

Hi Nige! Was just playing with the setting to see if it made much difference to how it audible/visibly (smoke) was running. Didnt make a huge difference to the rich/black smoke. See my whatsapp? assume i need a IAC stepper blanking plate from you? I see the webshop is down till weds but if I can get one soon as next week that would be good.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

what value does your coolant temp on Megarune or tuner studio say ?

[mikeh501]

3 hours ago, Hybrid_From_Hell said:

what value does your coolant temp on Megarune or tuner studio say ?

its what youd expect. starts ambient and climbs when started. looks like its working. I had a problem where it showed -60 iirc but it was fixed.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Can you do a screen shot with ignition on and not running ?

[RedLineMike]

for what its worth, ive just been through a similar issue with my Ls v8, spent nearly 2 months trying to get to the bottom of why it was over fueling & fowling plugs & it turned out i had the odd bank coil pack firing in the wrong sequence, it had been like that for some time including being raced like that,
when it was started it was running quite rich but when reved would seem to clear & sounded like it was on all 8,

i would definetly be 100% sure you havent a missfire before diving into the actual fuel tables trying to resolve the over fueling

[FridgeFreezer]

If it smells way too rich IT IS WAY TOO RICH, the ECU does not "know" anything it just does what it's told based on the sensor inputs it sees and some very basic maths.

Way too rich could be any simple thing that makes too much fuel go in - wrong numbers in REQ_FUEL or fuel map or warmup enrichment, a bad sensor input (MAP sensor disconnected = ECU thinks you're at full throttle all the time), or mechanical things like a stuck injector, bad fuel pressure regulator, misfire, wiring fault, etc. etc...

A misfire or just running insanely rich will coat the lambda sensor in unburnt fuel and "blind" it so it will measure totally wrong (probably very lean) - trust your nose and turn off EGO corrections until you're at least in the ballpark.

MS is good but it can't fix mechanical problems with your engine or wiring or sensors etc.

[mikeh501]

I made a flying visit to see the landie today. Only change was to set to 15 on req fuel and reset spark trim to 0 so he could shunt it around the garage, as at 6 it wouldn’t do anything beyond idle/rev.

I could see the KPA was up in the 80s whilst idling which might be a red herring to the richness, but wanted to understand where the leak was from. Couple of observations…. 

We took the pipe off the PWM at the air filter boss end (see last pic). Getting lot of suck from this pipe even though engine was 70c+. The PWM idle control is closed loop mode so that means its always doing something right?

What I cant explain... If you fully block the PWM pipe the engine stalls – but the KPA doesn’t fall much if at all when you do so, maybe from 83 to 73. It shouldnt stall surely? implication is idle stop is closed?

We wound out the idle screw in the throttle body and could feel some suck from throttle body (we had removed air filter) which seemed to make it idle better but didn’t change the KPA. Unfortunately it ran out of fuel about then and I needed to leave.

We also removed the purple MAP pipe from the plenum and put a syringe on it. Can confirm we could go from 100kpa atmospheric to near enough zero on tunerstudio so that isnt the issue.

 

Unless its got a crazy cam in it (Ithink it has piper 285/300), then we should get somewhere like 30s KPA at idle right? This sounds like something I need to pin down and double check for air leaks.

 

Im going over again on Thursday with some new plugs. Im also going to try a new map ive amended tonight with the following changes.

Set req fuel to 20 as per wizard values for engine. Curr. 15.

set injector staging to alternating to increase PW MS to 10ms from 5ms.

slightly (15%~) weakend off all KPA rows VE table 600/1000rpm values. Want to weaken mix for idle.

Note: EGO correction only after 1200rpm and above 71c. Not changes just a note to self.

Change PWM idle control to warmup only - open loop. only uses CLT. <56c. Changed from closed loop to try and rule out PWM when warm. If we still feel suck on the PWM after 56c something is wrong with it, or wiring I guess.

 

Picture for nige.

[FridgeFreezer]

Yeah idle kpA should be way lower, is your MAP hose connected securely and connected to a manifold vacuum point?

[mikeh501]

yep. 3mm barb on back of plenum. need to check the other hoses and the PWM boss. 

[FridgeFreezer]

1 hour ago, mikeh501 said:

yep. 3mm barb on back of plenum. need to check the other hoses and the PWM boss. 

Show us a photo of your plumbing because there's definitely at least one thing wrong with all this.

[mikeh501]

Brake vacumn LHS

3mm MAP barb is next to PWM boss on rear of plenum (its this boss i think ill check first)

PWM inlet goes under TB and fits on MAT boss next to air filter

IAC stepper inlet on TB is blocked up

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by mikeh501

[FridgeFreezer]

If the MAP sensor pickup is on the plate on the back of the plenum (I assume supplied by Nige) sorry but I have to ask... did you drill a hole for it to breathe through, and is the plate fully sealed to the plenum?

Also I spy an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator so unless that's tracking the stock FPR behaviour pretty closely it's entirely possible you are running a different fuel pressure hence different injector flow rate than would be expected by any map Nige has supplied. Does the FPR have a vacuum connection like the stock one?

[mikeh501]

29 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

If the MAP sensor pickup is on the plate on the back of the plenum (I assume supplied by Nige) sorry but I have to ask... did you drill a hole for it to breathe through, and is the plate fully sealed to the plenum?

Also I spy an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator so unless that's tracking the stock FPR behaviour pretty closely it's entirely possible you are running a different fuel pressure hence different injector flow rate than would be expected by any map Nige has supplied. Does the FPR have a vacuum connection like the stock one?

Ill double check the hole but i believe so. its the plate sealing to the plenum i want to check as i cant remember.

 

Do we have a winner on the regulator? I didnt realise it needed one but there isnt one fitted. Should I T off the brake vacumn? The pressure gauge says its 35-45psi which I thought was normal. It doesnt really fluctuate with revs either.

 

[mikeh501]

before i take it apart is there something i can spray around the hoses to see which is likely to be the problem?

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

You should have the blue vacumn pipe going from ECU to t Piece, and from the t piece 1 x to the gold plate rear of the plenum and the other to the fuel rail Regulator ?

Nige

[mikeh501]

3 minutes ago, Hybrid_From_Hell said:

You should have the blue vacumn pipe going from ECU to t Piece, and from the t piece 1 x to the gold plate rear of the plenum and the other to the fuel rail Regulator ?

Nige

thanks nige. ill do juat that. would be tidy too as they are near each other. bit of education for me, if FPR uses the vacumn I assume its there to increase fuel pressure as vacumn is applied? (i.e. MAP KPA goes down?) if its showing 35-40 odd psi at atmospheric, then surely the pressure will go up at idle where KPA is low, adding more fuel again? 🤕

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

On my 5.2 I have an aftermarket PRV and it runs at 53 PSi but will vary due to the Vac system, without it its ghastly !

Might be the issue, and you wnat circa 30 ish in rail 

[FridgeFreezer]

The stock FPR adjusts the fuel pressure relative to the engine vacuum as that's what the injectors "see" across them (one side is fuel pressure, the other side is engine vacuum) so that the flow rate stays fairly constant as the vacuum changes - I think the stock pressure for the older setups is around 35-45PSI (varying with engine vacuum obviously) while the later Thor injectors need about 50 from memory, maybe 53 like Nige's...

With the wrong fuel pressure the injector flow rates will be different to what you've told the ECU they are so hence why your REQ_FUEL changes improve things and hence why it's rich as a pig.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

pictorial version of your PRV Mr  Fridges comment 

[mikeh501]

😂😂 I’m going over tomorrow. Everything is crossed!

[mikeh501]

Just an update. went over today. Changed the plugs, applied the new tune, put the T piece in so the FPR gets vacumn, and blocked up the PWM completely.

Its definately 'better'.... still detectably running rich but not as much as it was before - sounds cleaner. starts cleanly, revs but it does stumble off idle when applying throttle sharply especially when its less than 70c, which is probably my bodge tune. Id say the plugs and tune have made the biggest discernable difference today.

Oh, and im now double sure its not missing. It sounded like it was firing on all, and I used my new toy, a fluke IR thermometer on the exhaust headers and they were all about the same.

The vacumn to the FPR isnt making much difference at all, but tbh its not going to until I solve the vacumn leak. We found one definate leak, an unblocked small barb near the throttle body (to the right) which might be the original FPR hose? We also found a leak near the new PWM boss to one side. Cant feel it but you hear it when putting fingers around it etc.

Next job is to pull off the plenum and do some further sealing around the boss and also do a final proving that the 3mm barb is clear. Once air tight I should be able to put the tune back to where it was as we will be at a lower vacumn on the map. Currently its still pulling near 83 KPA vacumn on idle and obviously this is putting more fuel in.

I also effectively turned off EGO control to take the lambda out of the equation. The lambda was up around 18 previously and now around 15. Obviously im not trusting it.

Garage is going to put their 4 gas analyser on it once we have done the above. Dreading the MOT lol.

Feels like progress....

Edited April 8, 2021 by mikeh501

[Bowie69]

How have you hooked up the engine breathers? 

[mikeh501]

8 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

How have you hooked up the engine breathers? 

You mean the ones from rocker covers? dont have a good pic but i think LHS one goes to inlet manifold and RHS one goes to throttle body I think. Id have to check. where should they go?

[Bowie69]

Do you have a restrictor before the inlet? If not, will also mess up the MAP, should be 4mm from memory. 

[mikeh501]

which inlet do you mean?