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New front Diff options - 2006 TD5


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My 2006 TD5 front Differential (on a 1991 200TDI etc) packed up in the Namibian desert which was annoying to say the least 😉
(I came down an extremely rough track in low range 1st gear, very very slowly, but crazy bunny hopping bouncing around that was hard to control.
At the bottom I turned a corner, went to change into 3rd gear to go up a slight slope - huge metal slamming sound as I accelerated - similar to when it falls out of gear. Huge metal crunching sounds if I tried to drive, no power. Removed the propshaft, drove for 2 days at 10km p/h to a lodge and removed the half shafts, then drove back to civilisation.
Oh well, she lasted 300,000km from new in Africa in heat and loaded, so thats not bad I guess....)

So whats the best option to fix her?
I have ordered some new half shafts, but Diff wise is a standard LR replacement best, or do Ashcroft etc do something better?
I have a very competent Landy specialist mechanic to help me, he can rebuild or replace, whichever has that magic combination of being being the most reliable, easiest and cheapest ;)
Thanks in advance!
 

Edited by roamingyak
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A while ago I contemplated upgrading the front diff. I mostly remember from my research that if you upgrade to an ATB or a locker, then you should also upgrade the CV joints and shafts. IIRC it was Hybrid_from_Hell / Nige telling it either here or in one of his Youtube videos.

Personally - but I'm far from an expert - I think that putting an open 4-pin diff (so 2 shafts) would be the sanest choice as far as budget is concerned: stronger than the standard LR 2-pin, but not increasing stress on the CV's. Ashcroft make them, and there's also a LR variant which is quite scarce if I'm not mistaken.

I hope others chime in to correct if necessary. Hope this helps.

Joris

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@Hybrid_From_Hell / Nige does pegged diffs which is a useful strength upgrade without spending loads, but yeah if you upgrade the diff you're going to break the next part along :lol: and lockers allow you to exert silly forces on one wheel that's got grip.

Nige also does some other nice bits like improved flange / seal I think, not increasing strength but good for reliability.

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Personally, I would do an Ashcroft ATB while there and change to 24/23 spline halfshafts and 23/24 CV joints.  That will be good forever if you made it this far on the stock carp.

Since the R&P will be destroyed, you might as well bring in a complete built center from Nigel. A stock R&P should be fine without pegging.

Edited by Red90
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Thanks all,

On 2/4/2020 at 2:13 PM, FridgeFreezer said:

@Hybrid_From_Hell / Nige does pegged diffs which is a useful strength upgrade without spending loads, but yeah if you upgrade the diff you're going to break the next part along :lol: and lockers allow you to exert silly forces on one wheel that's got grip.

Nige also does some other nice bits like improved flange / seal I think, not increasing strength but good for reliability.

Thanks. My (uneducated) theory is to use 'gentle all terrain' tyres so that the tyre will slip and release tension, as opposed to breaking parts internally. ie making the tyre the weakest part of the chain. You then drive within the limit so of what you know your vehicle can handle etc (as a solo overlander I'm rarely in a rush, if something looks too crazy, I just turn around when possible or spend time engineering a better situation (ramp/bridge etc)

 

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On 2/4/2020 at 5:32 PM, Red90 said:

Personally, I would do an Ashcroft ATB while there and change to 24/23 spline halfshafts and 23/24 CV joints.  That will be good forever if you made it this far on the stock carp.

Since the R&P will be destroyed, you might as well bring in a complete built center from Nigel. A stock R&P should be fine without pegging.

Thanks, a bit too expensive to ship all of that down to Africa and pay import duties etc etc
(Plus I already have purchased the half shafts)

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On 2/4/2020 at 12:42 PM, Vogler said:

A while ago I contemplated upgrading the front diff. I mostly remember from my research that if you upgrade to an ATB or a locker, then you should also upgrade the CV joints and shafts. IIRC it was Hybrid_from_Hell / Nige telling it either here or in one of his Youtube videos.

Personally - but I'm far from an expert - I think that putting an open 4-pin diff (so 2 shafts) would be the sanest choice as far as budget is concerned: stronger than the standard LR 2-pin, but not increasing stress on the CV's. Ashcroft make them, and there's also a LR variant which is quite scarce if I'm not mistaken.

I hope others chime in to correct if necessary. Hope this helps.

Joris

Thanks, I'll bounce this off my mechanic - gearbox and transfer box are Ashcroft so I kind of trust them 😜

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9 hours ago, roamingyak said:

Thanks, a bit too expensive to ship all of that down to Africa and pay import duties etc etc
(Plus I already have purchased the half shafts)

Okay.  Just be aware those halfshafts are tiny at the CV and will be your next failure.  The original 1991 axle was a better design.  Carry spare halfshafts and CVs.  It just seems like a waste of money if you are paying someone to do all this and put stock parts back in.  They will fail again.

Have you got it apart yet?  I would not be surprised if the whole center is unusable.

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13 hours ago, Red90 said:

Okay.  Just be aware those halfshafts are tiny at the CV and will be your next failure.  The original 1991 axle was a better design.  Carry spare halfshafts and CVs.  It just seems like a waste of money if you are paying someone to do all this and put stock parts back in.  They will fail again.

Have you got it apart yet?  I would not be surprised if the whole center is unusable.

Thanks, understood, and mostly agreed, but it did manage 250,000km on that axle, mostly in Africa so its not like its an instant failure with stock parts.
Will be a while before the repair is started, got to decide on a plan, buy/ship parts etc...
I will replace the whole centre piece, new half shafts, assess other damage when apart, replace as new. then hopefully get another 250,000km from it ;)

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Why order parts before inspecting?  If the halfshafts are out, it is 30 minutes to pull the center. You don't need a mechanic.

Also...  New genuine parts will be more expensive than the upgraded aftermarket parts, so going genuine makes even less sense.  The only "cheap" route is second hand parts or aftermarket pattern parts.  Both of those options are not going to put you back into the making it 250k without an issue camp.

Edited by Red90
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18 hours ago, Red90 said:

Why order parts before inspecting?  If the halfshafts are out, it is 30 minutes to pull the center. You don't need a mechanic.

Also...  New genuine parts will be more expensive than the upgraded aftermarket parts, so going genuine makes even less sense.  The only "cheap" route is second hand parts or aftermarket pattern parts.  Both of those options are not going to put you back into the making it 250k without an issue camp.

Given the fundamental nature of the parts I take the view to replace the whole lot and build the axle 'as new' given that my life can depend on it and the costs are in the hundreds rather than the thousands to do so. I'm in a different continent to the vehicle so I  need to make a plan remotely and organise to execute it when visiting. 😉 
Inspection will show how badly it is damaged, many or all of the components will need replacing etc - easier for risk and piece of mind to replace with a complete new unit rather than pay for costs or repairs to existing and hope its done as well as the new unit will be. (It was pretty serious metal crunching at the time, and driven for 200km with a metal grinding sound before half shafts were removed, then driven for 1,000km etc).

Air courier fee for shipping the parts will be in the high hundreds of £££'s, so need to ship the parts via boat which takes 6 weeks so can't be done when down there (as I'd have to stay 7 weeks at least). ie: things get complicated. 
Standard half shafts have already been paid for and delivered as they needed replacing to stop a leak on the axle end (apparently).  Because of this I'm less interested in diff upgrades that require other components being upgraded. It's also good to stay fairly stock/standard as getting nonstandard parts to remoter parts of the world still remains hugely problematic or you end up in a chain effect of reliance for repairs down the road etc. 

As a general rule I either compliment (ie: add a Kenlowe fan to compliment the existing engine fan) or replace a standard part with something proven to be better thats fairly standard (ie: LT77 replaced with stumpy R380).

Aware of the axle upgrades mentioned above, thanks for those, good to make me think of other options, other examples shown below, but these are best done when back in Europe not parked up in Africa with huge shipping and customs charges etc, and as mentioned it just push's the stress to other components. Having your diff explode is better than your gearbox when in the middle of the Sahara 800km from the nearest village 😜

https://www.roamingtheoutback.com/2018/07/defender-10-to-24-spline-axle-conversion-detroit-truetrac/


 

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Okay.  I give up.  You clearly do not want to discuss options rationally but are stuck in a one track thought process and not really listening to what I'm saying.  If you are only spending hundreds you will be purchasing unreliable parts.

FYI, I live in Canada.  100% of the parts I buy are air shipped.

Making axles stronger does not lead to the gearbox breaking.  That whole thought process is completely incorrect.

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18 hours ago, deep said:

I've always thought Trutracs were made in the U.S.A..  I was quite surprised to see the one in that picture is Taiwanese.  There's that global economy thing again!  I do fancy one of those.

They are currently made in Poland. It makes more sense to get an Ashcroft ATB, though, if buying new.

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5 hours ago, Red90 said:

They are currently made in Poland. It makes more sense to get an Ashcroft ATB, though, if buying new.

I'm half Polish so that makes them more attractive!  I haven't seriously priced that stuff for a while (always something more important to spend money on, sigh) but last time I looked Trutracs were far cheaper in New Zealand, basically because there is an importer here.  Ashcrofts do seem to have a better reputation though and I note I can get half shafts from them to marry the diff to my older CVs at the front.

I have heard that a front ATB diff has a slight self-centring effect, which overcomes the drag of a steering damper somewhat.  Does anybody have any experience of that?

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It will do that, for sure.

To be honest, and I am not one to slate Ashcroft for anything, their ATB has had a few failures on here that were unexpected.

Authentic TrueTracs have a very good reputation, though I understand they are more expensive to most people.

Price them up against a Quaife and either look a bargain!

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19 hours ago, deep said:

I have heard that a front ATB diff has a slight self-centring effect, which overcomes the drag of a steering damper somewhat.  Does anybody have any experience of that?

Yes, when on power.  They will also tell you when the tire pressures are not even side to side.  They pull to the lower side.

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It turned out that the ATB's I started the topic quoted above about, were heavily abused. Drivers with binary throttle behaviour, very aggressive 33" tyres, and broken halfshafts changed in muddy conditions. The types that didn't feel they had been properly offroading when nothing was broken.  Also I have never used these ATB's, the seller agreed to take them back. So I don't think my post says anything about their quality.

I have installed a new one which hasn't given me any issues since. Approx 10k miles, some on heavy corrugations where they certainly had added value. Grip improved tremendously.

ATB's have domed spring washers in the centre which might suffer from fatigue and break, at the time Ashcroft offered to send me new ones for free.

I can't remember finding anything bronze in the Ahcroft ATB's. You can see all its parts in my post mentioned above.

Joris

Edited by Vogler
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1 hour ago, Bowie69 said:

I was sure Soren had a failure of the bronze shims in one of his ATBs, but can't seem to find it.

The first one was a dirt contamination problem.  Not the diff.

Second one was not the axle at all but the suspension.

Third, 37 pages.  Did not see the issue with a quick look.

That is the problem with people stating conclusions without first a proper investigation. Then the statements get taken out of context and it develops a life of its own.

 

Back to this topic.  "My" point is that is does not make sense to buy a new genuine diff.  It will be expensive.  It will not be as durable as one of these and it will not be as good off road.  The only low cost option is a used unit.  That would then have unknown reliability.

Edited by Red90
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29 minutes ago, Vogler said:

ATB's have domed spring washers in the centre which might suffer from fatigue and break, at the time Ashcroft offered to send me new ones for free.

I may be muddling Soren with someone else, but I know Ashcroft sent some of these washers out (I thought they were bronze, perhaps I am mixing up with the LT230).

Calling @Soren Frimodt!

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4 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

...perhaps I am mixing up with the LT230).

LT230 diffs are a different story.  They have an inherent oil supply problem at high speed.  There is no real fix available.  If you get any real amount of differentiation while it is spinning fast, it will cook from running dry.

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