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New front Diff options - 2006 TD5


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2 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

I may be muddling Soren with someone else, but I know Ashcroft sent some of these washers out (I thought they were bronze, perhaps I am mixing up with the LT230).

Calling @Soren Frimodt!

Yes indeed, the spring washers have a tendency to go flat, Ashcroft send me new ones FOC as well which is good service, but I must say it soon got weak again, I did drive the car to work and back everyday though (about 90km in all)

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On 2/10/2020 at 4:45 PM, Soren Frimodt said:

Yes indeed, the spring washers have a tendency to go flat, Ashcroft send me new ones FOC as well which is good service, but I must say it soon got weak again, I did drive the car to work and back everyday though (about 90km in all)

So what is the effect of these spring washers going flat? Does it lose the ATB effect? Lose the preload that gives some drive when one wheel is airborne? Or something else?

Mine are fitted in the 300Tdi 110 which does low mileage anyway, so it may not be an issue. I have not done a lot with them but the difference in normal off road use is very noticeable to standard open diffs. In places where you'd scrabble and spin a bit, it just goes up with no fuss. Good long trip coming up on the weekend which will be interesting.

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I’d be interested to know, too.  My understanding was exactly the same - that they give preload so you don’t need to trigger them with the left foot braking when one wheel looses all traction, but it’d be good to know if that’s right - I could live with that if need be, but don’t want a product that frequently needs rebuilding.

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Yes guys thats exactly what they do, the greater the preload, the easier traction is given to the wheel spinning. So basically it changes the way it behaves and needs to be driven as the spring washers go flat. There are no bad side effects or stuff failing or getting worn or anything. It simply changes the character, and not by much. Anyway I did consider (vapour builds you know) to use one of the halfshafts as preload so I could just remove a gasket when needed to regain preload 😁

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Just been digging around the internet.  I have come across dozens of people complaining about Trutrac failures, with the side gears floating, worm gears chewing up the casing, the teeth of the worm gears having their surface spalling, a lot of chattering, the casing bolts coming undone and a few disintegrations.  Not encouraging, but I mentioned it before that I’d heard concerns over their quality since they shipped manufacture to Taiwan.  Most of those are from Camaro and Mustang owners.  No mention about preload washers on those forums, and none visible in the photos, but I think Nige explained once that the Trutracs have thrust washers on one side, while Ashcroft have them on both, which is why Trutracs are sold specified for front or rear while Ashcroft can be fit in either axle.  The off-roader forums, mostly Jeeps, say they’re very pleased with the Trutracs with no reported faults, but quite a few comments about needing the left foot braking, suggesting no significant preload.

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I know people that have run TTs for 30 years in Defenders.  Never seen a failure or loss of performance. Bought and installed used ones.  No signs of wear when disassembled.  I'm sure they are stronger than any halfshafts you can get.

In the Rover style of TT, there are coned washers between the thrust bearings.  They have thrust bearings in the center between the side gears that are locked to the casing.  The springs push the side gears out to the casing.  The casing sides do not have thrust bearings.  The idea of direction is to have the thrust force when driving forward to the center.

https://discoweb.org/oldsite/truetracgears/index.htm

It is beyond me how Ashcroft could have messed up the design of springs (Belleville washers).  Everything you need to know about sizing them has been known a lot longer than any of us have been around.

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That’s a good link. 
 

Like I said, I didn’t find any complaints about TTs from off-roaders, save one who didn’t understand how they work.  It’s quite possible that the sports car owners, using them mostly for “launches” (drag racing, I presume) are over stressing them with them being smaller units behind more powerful engines, but there were a lot of complaints about chattering and side gear play even on new units.  The bigger units LRs use may be stronger and better made.

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9 hours ago, Snagger said:

but there were a lot of complaints about chattering and side gear play even on new units.  The bigger units LRs use may be stronger and better made.

Could just be that LR's are so agricultural no-one notices :rolleyes:

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3 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Could just be that LR's are so agricultural no-one notices :rolleyes:

No.  They make no noise.  They have no play. They are preloaded. You can tell they are there as the self centering increases under power and they pull slightly if one tire is lower pressure than the other.

 

13 hours ago, Snagger said:

...but there were a lot of complaints about chattering and side gear play even on new units.  The bigger units LRs use may be stronger and better made.

Really sounds like they are not talking about TTs, but normal plate type LSDs. I also have friends with Wranglers that run them.  No noise, no play.

Detroits have some play and you can hear them click if you listen.

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On 2/13/2020 at 8:51 PM, Red90 said:

No.  They make no noise.  They have no play. They are preloaded. You can tell they are there as the self centering increases under power and they pull slightly if one tire is lower pressure than the other.

 

Really sounds like they are not talking about TTs, but normal plate type LSDs. I also have friends with Wranglers that run them.  No noise, no play.

Detroits have some play and you can hear them click if you listen.

It sounds that way, but the photos some had posted of damaged parts were definitely TTs.  Do a google search for Trutrac faults and you’ll get a lot of results, but they all seem to be muscle car owners.  The Trutrac nomenclature does recommend them for the application, so they should be up to it.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm currently facing the same questions regarding the front diff, only a couple of weeks after having contributed to this topic. First thought it was the LT230, but it turned out to be the front crown wheel bolts that had gotten loose and broken off, so I'm currently rebuilding the transfer case and the front diff 😀😀

A local club member told me that a specific crown wheel allows fitting a P38 4-pin in the front. He's knowledgeable, likes offroading and has worked for LR, so I got confused since it is being told everywhere that it's not possible without machining the diff. Then I found Ashcroft saying the same on this very forum.

On 1/4/2007 at 2:31 PM, ashtrans said:

you can fit the P38 4 pin diff centre and bearings to a normal rover diff if you use a different crown wheel and pinion, TBH100050, it is thinner to allow for the different 4 pin diff flange face position,

Thought it's worth mentioning since I haven't found it anywhere else, I presume that this crown wheel is too thin, although it was used in the early 90 V8.

Also: the man quoted above advises to use Loctite 270 and Allen bolts (12.9) for the crown wheel.

J

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Hi,

to fit the 4 pin we would usually machine the casing but you are correct it is possible to fit it without doing this if you change the ring and pinion, the one you want is TBH100050,

its the same as the stock 3.54 one but the crown wheel is about 4mm thinner to adjust for the different P38 crown wheel offset

Dave

 

Edited by ashtrans
wrong part number, now correct
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Thanks for confirming this Dave! Based on the fact that you prefer machining the diff, I presume that the thinner crown wheel is not the best choice.

Yesterday I was about to order your 4-pin diff but I think it's better to see how deliveries fare in the CoVid panic that has been soaring since...

Anyway - that gives me some more time to contemplate between an ATB or an open diff. Unfortunately I won't be able to afford uprated CV's at the same time and I have the impression that an ATB with standard CV's poses more risk of breakage than an open diff.

Joris

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  • 6 months later...

A late reaction, but the rebuild of the front diff and transfer box took a while due to CoVid and replacement parts not up to specs.

We recently took our Td5 on a club trip to the Marquenterre dunes, first outing with an ATB in both front and rear axle. The difference is impressive, lots more grip in the loose sand, some difficult slopes were taken with remarkable ease. If you're often on loose terrain, they're certainly worth it.

The steering tends to pull towards the centre slightly harder than before. That took a bit of getting used to, initially I thought something was wrong with the power steering. But once you're 'recalibrated', the presence of the ATB's remains unnoticed in ordinary traffic.

Joris

 

 

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6 hours ago, Vogler said:

 

The steering tends to pull towards the centre slightly harder than before. That took a bit of getting used to, initially I thought something was wrong with the power steering. But once you're 'recalibrated', the presence of the ATB's remains unnoticed in ordinary traffic.

Joris

 

 

I think I'd quite like that.  The slight "stickiness" and hesitance to return to centre is one thing that always bothers me about Land Rover steering.  Sadly, having lost my job last week, such luxuries aren't even on my wishlist right now!

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11 hours ago, Snagger said:

Oh bugger!  Sorry to hear that.  There’s a lot of it going around just now.

Ta.  Nothing to do with pandemics or recessions.  I've been slowly falling out with my boss over the last decade and he chose to pay me out rather than go through mediation.  I must be insanely loyal to have stayed so long!  Unfortunately, as a 59 year old white male, I'll automatically be near the bottom of the list in anything I apply for, in this day and age.  Self employment looks like the way to go.  Could be an opportunity!

 

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1 hour ago, deep said:

 Unfortunately, as a 59 year old white male, I'll automatically be near the bottom of the list in anything I apply for, in this day and age.  Self employment looks like the way to go.  Could be an opportunity!

 

That's the spirit who knows it might be the making of you regards Stephen

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  • 2 months later...

Update:
I've done 32,000km mostly on extremely rocky and difficult terrain since putting in the 'Allmakes rebuilt in the UK' front diff and Hardy Spicer shafts, plus complete rebuilt of each axle end, and all is well diff wise 😉

Which is good as in those km's I have been through two fuel tanks (baffle spot welds pop), transfer box rebuild (intermediate shaft bearing seized to the shaft), disintegration of front radius arm bushes (genuine LR), broken rear Koni shock (first time in 300,000 African km), cracked aluminium radiator (knackered, under warranty), replaced upper steering joints and upper shaft, replaced a front hub seal, replaced a gear box mounting, retightened the exhaust to the Turbo 3 times, destroyed two tyres with sidewall punctures, tightened about 30 bolts/jubilee clips  and replaced a lower Y coolant hose on the side of a very steep track. It's a fudging hard place on vehicles even though I drive very carefully. 
 

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