Axles

[Chicken Drumstick]

Can you use Dana60 centres from US trucks? If so, I'd have thought there would be a ton of options available online these days.

[Ex Member]

On 2/23/2020 at 10:53 AM, ianmayco68 said:

From what I understand from Nige and other's LR did as usual make the Salisbury on the cheap , as it's a variant of the Dana 60 , and the strength lies in the huge cross pin in the diff so when you remove this and fit a locker you remove the strength ending up with an axle no stronger than anything else and also the parts are expensive to replace . So if you take a short nose diff rover axle fit a ATB or locker have it pegged couple in some Ashcroft shafts you end up with something stronger or as strong as a Salisbury , I'm no expert as I asked the question in the first place but this is what I understand the info to mean that I've been given but I may be wrong .

This is quite wrong.  The entire center is many times stronger than a Rover center.  The crown wheel and pinion and any differential you can install.  You will never break it. No matter how much money you put into a Rover center, it will never be even half the strength of the Salisbury center.

The halfshafts are the same size as on Rover axles, BUT the stock ones are a lot stronger than what LR used in the Rover axles.  You can also upgrade these to chrome moly.

It makes zero sense to get rid of the Salisbury.  Put in a Truetrac or a Detroit locker and Ashcroft shafts and you are good to go.  The P38 short nose is a crappy design.  In addition to what you would have spent on the Salisbury, you will need a new propshaft and then it will still be able to have a R&P failure at any time.

[ianmayco68]

6 minutes ago, Red90 said:

This is quite wrong.  The entire center is many times stronger than a Rover center.  The crown wheel and pinion and any differential you can install.  You will never break it. No matter how much money you put into a Rover center, it will never be even half the strength of the Salisbury center.

Which is what I said above take the centre out of a Salisbury axle and fit a locker and you’ve lost all the strength, it becomes no stronger than a rover axle , so an upgraded short nose would be stronger 

[Ex Member]

4 minutes ago, ianmayco68 said:

Which is what I said above take the centre out of a Salisbury axle and fit a locker and you’ve lost all the strength, it becomes no stronger than a rover axle....

No.  That is incorrect. You do not seem to understand what is going on. Putting in a locker to a Salisbury does not make it weaker.

[Ex Member]

Adding a P38 axle will give you a weaker axle and cost you a LOT more money, no matter have much you hand over to Nigel.

[Gluv]

16 hours ago, Red90 said:

Adding a P38 axle will give you a weaker axle and cost you a LOT more money, no matter have much you hand over to Nigel.

I've always been led to believe Salisbury axles are the strongest fitted to Land rovers but I can recall reading that during the Wolf trials Salisbury axles kept breaking. P38 axles were used instead as they were less problematic apparently.

Does anybody have any information on this ?

Gluv

[landroversforever]

17 hours ago, Red90 said:

Adding a P38 axle will give you a weaker axle and cost you a LOT more money, no matter have much you hand over to Nigel.

It's not the P38 axle as a whole, but rather the 110 axle with the P38 type diff. And yes, changing the axle and putting in an uprated centre will make for stronger axle than a salisbury with an uprated centre. The cross pin in the standard salisbury diff is the only part that's any better than the Wolf type axle. 

[Chicken Drumstick]

28 minutes ago, Gluv said:

I've always been led to believe Salisbury axles are the strongest fitted to Land rovers but I can recall reading that during the Wolf trials Salisbury axles kept breaking. P38 axles were used instead as they were less problematic apparently.

Does anybody have any information on this ?

Gluv

Defenders do not run p38 axles, wrong radius arm locations and diff on the wrong side. The latter 110 uses a variation of the p38 diff centre and Wolfs use gusseted Rover axles. I cannot see how these are even on par with the Salisbury, at least in terms of the axle/diff internals.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Chicken Drumstick

[Chicken Drumstick]

Dana 60

 

The venerable '60 has been available in either high- or low-pinion designs and was never used in an IFS application. Custom Differentials warns to steer clear of the rare but virtually identical Dana 61 because most of the parts are not interchangeable.

Applications: Front and rear.
Type: Semi- and full-floating.
Spline count: 16, 23, 30, 32 and 35.
Factory ratios: 3.54:1 through 7.17:1.
Maximum tire size for stock axle: 38.5-inch.
Strong point: Available in a variety of widths, most of which were full-floaters.
Weak point: The driver-side carrier bearing was known to spin on the carrier and this often spun the race, which can damage the housing.
Junkyard jewel: A heavy-duty front '60 can be found on '78 and '79 ¾-ton Ford pickups equipped with the snowplow package. Some late '70s and early '80s Dodge trucks had 35-spline '60 rear axles. Rear '60s are easy to find.
Building secrets: The spider-gear roll pin is small and hollow, and is prone to breakage. Builders often double up the roll pin for extra strength (slide one inside of another). Also, replace the pinion yoke with a 1350-series yoke for extra strength. Finally, be careful about the spline count. Look for the 32- and 35-spline axles, avoid the 16s and 23s.
Aftermarket alternatives: Currie Enterprises, DTS Custom Service, Dynatrac, Custom Differentials.

https://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/129-0301-axle/

 

I know the Rover Salisbury isn't 100% the same as those found on US trucks. But I struggle to believe a p38 based Rover axle is even close. It was just sufficient for a 110/130 running 235/85R16's and cheaper than the Salisbury. So LR switched to them.

[Gluv]

3 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Defenders do not run p38 axles, wrong radius arm locations and diff on the wrong side. The latter 110 uses a variation of the p38 diff centre and Wolfs use gusseted Rover axles. I cannot see how these are even on par with the Salisbury, at least in terms of the axle/diff internals.

Sorry p38 diffs then. 

I have a wolf 90 which looks pretty standard, no external gussets that I have noticed.Having said that the front axle has all the brackets welded on that the rear has but I'm not sure if anything is different internally 

[Gluv]

From wiki

"The Land Rover vehicle, known commercially as Defender XD, has been subjected to extensive and rigorous trialling in order to ensure that it can meet the high standards of reliability which are essential for operational military vehicles. Therefore, I am pleased to have been able to announce earlier today that, subject to the satisfactory completion of contractual negotiations, I propose to place an order with Land-Rover for about 8,000 vehicles. That order is worth about £170 million. It will bring substantial industrial and employment benefits to Land-Rover, and enhance the vehicle's already excellent prospects in export markets."

 

 

DesignEdit

The Wolf was tested, rejected, upgraded and tested again before the MoDwas satisfied. It is far stronger and more reliable than the Land Rover Defender on which it was based.

Engine choiceEdit

When the Wolf was designed the engine in the civilian Defenders was the Td5. Land Rover preferred the 300Tdi for the Wolf because the electronics in the Td5 were more complex to manage in the field.

The 300Tdi on a Wolf uses a slightly different design of timing cover compared to the civilian version.

Reinforced rear axleEdit

The testing was extremely rigorous and Salisbury axles kept breaking. The axle was therefore redesigned using stronger internals, hubs and outer casing, making one of the strongest land rover axles ever made^{[citation needed]}.

Fibreglass roofEdit

The fibreglass roof was far simpler to manufacture over the raised height of the roofbars than the Defender aluminium roof. The production was outsourced.

Side mounted spare wheelEdit

Everywhere else where Land Rover tried to mount the spare wheel caused the mountings to break free and it was too heavy for the bonnet. There are 3 versions of mounting, soft top, hard top and quick release.

ChassisEdit

The chassis is considerably different in design to the standard Defender chassis even though it looks similar. The side walls are standard, most of the rest is bespoke. The additional rear load bed mounting was to take increased weights as the standard chassis kept punching big dents in the rear floor.

[Snagger]

No way are the Wolf axle internals stronger than the Salisbury.  I have heard of the Salisbury axle case having joint failures where the side tubes meet the cast diff casing, but they were sleeved for HD applications with heavier load ratings than the Wolf for a lot of utilities.  I’d wager the reason for the Wolf 110 using the P38 axle was entirely cost, as the diff was in use for other vehicles while the Salisbury was special for the 110.  The P38 diff has a short pinion with closely spaced bearings that fail to handle the tangential loads at high torque, resulting in the pinion skewing.  The Salisbury has a very long pinion that does not suffer this problem.

I would always be wary of quoting Wikipedia as a source of information; its open nature allows anyone to post information regardless of how accurate it is, and there is no way to discern the accuracy without a level of expertise in the subject.

[FridgeFreezer]

54 minutes ago, Gluv said:

Reinforced rear axleEdit

 

The testing was extremely rigorous and Salisbury axles kept breaking. The axle was therefore redesigned using stronger internals, hubs and outer casing, making one of the strongest land rover axles ever made^{[citation needed]}.

 

[Ed Poore]

Appears to have been sourced from here: http://hmvf.co.uk/topic/17805-land-rover-wolf-history-and-unanswered-questions/

[Chicken Drumstick]

1 hour ago, Gluv said:

Sorry p38 diffs then. 

I have a wolf 90 which looks pretty standard, no external gussets that I have noticed.Having said that the front axle has all the brackets welded on that the rear has but I'm not sure if anything is different internally 

4 pin diff as opposed to 2 pin. Not all the axles are gusted, but I've seen some that are, from the axle tubes to the diff casing. Obviously this is only making the external casing stronger, not the diff/axle internals.

As for the Wiki article, it says citation needed. Sounds more like internet hearsay than fact unless it can reference something official. And I'm sure LR's marketing department would have described the axle as strengthened, they aren't going to say it is POS are they.

Remember the Salisbury has been used on the 101FC and 109's as well as 110's (and the 2b I think). The p38 diff variant only came about late in life for the model. And from what I've read was due to Dana requiring a licence fee of some sort for each Salisbury made. But logically, if the Salisbury was so prone to breaking as you cite, why did LR use it for 30 years before deciding the axle .they used on their other models as a light duty axle was actually better?? 

[Chicken Drumstick]

17 minutes ago, Ed Poore said:

Appears to have been sourced from here: http://hmvf.co.uk/topic/17805-land-rover-wolf-history-and-unanswered-questions/

Well that link claims the Wolf axle is "one of the strongest axles ever made" 🤣

Maybe in the small realm of LR's it was one of their better attempts. But strongest ever........ in the entire automotive 🤡 

Edited February 28, 2020 by Chicken Drumstick

[FridgeFreezer]

I could believe this was about the time they were trying to move to all Rover / P38 axles rather than Salisbury and that the non-sals back axles were proving weak but the sals diff is massive and 4-pin so I struggle to believe the P38 style is stronger.

The 127/130 Sals had beefed casings / tubes as I understand it, hard to believe one like that would be unreliable under the back of a 110 given the 127 was originally made for towing guns and ammo around with a V8 up front so must've passed the test originally

[Snagger]

24 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

.

Remember the Salisbury has been used on the 101FC and 109's as well as 110's (and the 2b I think). The p38 diff variant only came about late in life for the model. And from what I've read was due to Dana requiring a licence fee of some sort for each Salisbury made. But logically, if the Salisbury was so prone to breaking as you cite, why did LR use it for 30 years before deciding the axle .they used on their other models as a light duty axle was actually better?? 

I think the IIB used ENV axles, which were huge but weaker than Salisbury.  The 101 and armoured SIIIs used Salisbury axles front and rear.

[Gluv]

1 hour ago, Snagger said:

No way are the Wolf axle internals stronger than the Salisbury.  I have heard of the Salisbury axle case having joint failures where the side tubes meet the cast diff casing, but they were sleeved for HD applications with heavier load ratings than the Wolf for a lot of utilities.  I’d wager the reason for the Wolf 110 using the P38 axle was entirely cost, as the diff was in use for other vehicles while the Salisbury was special for the 110.  The P38 diff has a short pinion with closely spaced bearings that fail to handle the tangential loads at high torque, resulting in the pinion skewing.  The Salisbury has a very long pinion that does not suffer this problem.

I would always be wary of quoting Wikipedia as a source of information; its open nature allows anyone to post information regardless of how accurate it is, and there is no way to discern the accuracy without a level of expertise in the subject.

I'm not quoting anything as gospel, it is just some information out there

I would say you are probably right regarding cost, pretty much everything seems to come down to it these days 

[Ex Member]

1 hour ago, landroversforever said:

The cross pin in the standard salisbury diff is the only part that's any better than the Wolf type axle. 

You are completely and totally incorrect.  The ring and pinion on a Salisbury is larger diameter, thicker and hypoid.  It is a good three times stronger than any Rover ring and pinion.  The differential case is much larger and ANY differential will be at least double the strength of any Rover differential. You can comfortably run up to 40 spline chrome moly halfshafts before the halfshaft become stronger than any part of the differential center or ring and pinion.  This is undebateable fact.  There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Dana 60s in use and they are very common for heavily built off road trucks.

The P38 is worse than a normal Rover center with the short pinion.

 

Edited February 28, 2020 by Red90

[Ed Poore]

10 minutes ago, Red90 said:

It is a good three times stronger than any Rover ring and pinion.

Playing devil's advocate here but do you have any references or back up for that? I'm not disputing the fact but it's about time we actually brought some science into this.

I had a trawl through Ashcroft's website as I recall seeing them test half-shafts. I found a graph which showed different spline LR half-shafts vs. Ashcroft's breaking torque and the differences were marked. OK there is something about Ashcroft's testing it but rather than an independent test house but it's better than nothing.

Remember size and thickness are not the be all and end all. A good example of this was a chap who came around to do some ground-works at my place. Managed to snap two Kubota pins in the digger, the steel quality was utter carp. Although there is something to be said for it - at least he didn't bend the arm itself.

[Ex Member]

56 minutes ago, Ed Poore said:

Playing devil's advocate here but do you have any references or back up for that? I'm not disputing the fact but it's about time we actually brought some science into this.

Has nobody ever left that little island and seen the world? It is hard to believe this is even a discussion.

The Rover diff center has been in use since the 50s.  The Dana 60 center has been in use as long.  Both have been built up and broken a million times.

The 60 center is extremely common for use in off road builds.  It is proven for decades to be bullet proof with 35 spline chrome moly axles and you would not blink using it with 42" tires and any amount of horsepower. Most are happy to go to 40 spline and that is a decent strength balance. 35 spline is 180% the strength of 24 spline and 40 spline is 273%.

With the best, newest aftermarket Rover R&P and pinning, you can make it about the same strength as 24 spline.

 

Edited February 28, 2020 by Red90

[Bowie69]

But the LR Salisbury is nothing like most us-specced Dana 60s....

[Ex Member]

3 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

But the LR Salisbury is nothing like most us-specced Dana 60s....

Actually, it is exactly the same.  It is a Dana 60, made by Dana.  The only difference is metric bolting and the bearings.  The ones in US trucks normally use 2 pinion diffs stock and 27 or 30 spline shafts.  24 spline is about mid way between 27 and 30.  It is fairly straightforward to change to any Dana 60 differential.  The complicated part in a salisbury axle is going up to 35 spline, simply because nobody is mass producing the conversion parts.  For a "Dana 60", these parts are very common.

In any case, if you stay with 24 spline chrome moly axles, the diff will be unbreakable and the shafts, which are much easier to change, are the weak points.  If you go with a P38, pretty much anything could break even if you spend a lot more to upgrade the R&P and have it pinned.  If you just stay with the stock R&P, unpinned, it will be much weaker than the shafts.

 

 

 

[Bowie69]

So it's the same, but different, which is what I said, I think?

It is not a high spec Dana 60 whatever way you roll it