defender rear cross member

[davie]

Hi so looking to pick brains of this site, 

 

My landy passed mot month or so ago with no mention of corrosion but on removing a un used plate today for a tow socket i found a hole - if i can figure out how i will attach pic from mobile later.

 

not too bothered as tester would have been unable to see it so no issue there.

looking to get a replacement x member, probably with extensions anyway as garage says fuel tank must come out.

galv one as i want to last as long as possible.  

whos bought and from where - experiences and thoughts most welcome.

 

2003 td5 defender 90

 

cheers

david

[Arjan]

I have a new Ninety one siting here (not galvanized - but you could have it dipped if you want) we could talk about as we have decided to replace the complete chassis...

Yes, I'm in France - however, I will be going to the UK asap. we can to collect a roof so if you're not in a hurry....

[western]

To upload a photo direct, use the link next to the paperclip icon at bottom of the reply text box 

 

[davie]

so beaten with a hammer around it and seems fine,  looks like one of chassis holes i made wider when hit and a wee rot pocket.  beat at chassis rail either side with hammer and solid didnt go through.    video has sound when i took but dont know if came through.

 

[davie]

original plan was to be painting it as just waxed chassis, so rear x member looks terrible as i had started to clean up for paint when rain came.  would wonder now if patch for a year until world settles down a bit.  chassis rail does seem solid and rest of chassis is fresh enough aint worried.

[davie]

so more info after some research,

garage doesnt recommend 3mm galv - too heavy but would tolerate galv due to welding and fume issues at a protest.

bill looks like easily £1200 plus inc a cross member with extensions at around £250 - ouch! 

blacksmith i sent video and images to reckons chop out area to something nice hard against chassis rail and weld in new,   be fine as its not on where tow bar pulls, ie not centre area.   work for year or so until world is more stable and then get a high quality replacement, he did one recently on a 110 and although didnt say who made x member supplied it was terrible, nowhere near square and he really spent some time on it first cutting and re welding to make worth fitting - now he is a perfectionist for sure but he hated poor workmanship.    Worries me as finding a high quality suitable manufactured one doesnt sound easy.

so once this lockdown is over going to go see him, let him poke it and hit with hammer prior to any welding - so all suggestions of really excellent quality replacement are good just in case.

[mickeyw]

For that kinda money you could always buy yourself a cheap MIG welder and teach yourself how to do the job, and be quids in. 

This is assuming you don't already know to weld.😉

[paime]

If it was me i would just plate it up. A mig + steel, gas and wire will set you back less than £400 and you'll have it for other jobs in the future as well. It's a nice easy place to weld, too. I had a similar dilemma on my outriggers and the kind folks on here persuaded me to buy a welder; certainly didn't regret it and have used it on heaps of things since.

Given the expense of a new crossmember install, might it be an idea to save up for a new chassis in a year's time?

Edited March 31, 2020 by paime

[davie]

Sadly i dont know an awful lot of welding - can glue odd bits together on thicker stuff with works invertor arc welder but its not something i would properly trust near a chassis yet.  

would love to attend a welding evening course to get some basics on mig and arc  - emailed some today in aberdeen to see.  

for anyone who has one of the invertor migs, how do you get on with it and whats a reasonable non rental bottle situation as cant justify big bottle of gas for all i genuinely need.

think going to speak to blacksmith and get mudflap brackets off too and plate bottom of x member all way to end from beside chassis rail as thats a good solid point it seems and just have a plate welded to new steel for mud flaps, do away with horrible debris hard to treat bit between two areas.  

Paime you are right already thinking save pennies and do chassis in year or two as mot man hints at it,  mate and i did a series one yrs ago so am sure we could manage it again, all be it slower and with some reading of tech stuff here for hints.    Interestingly enough in a month or two he will have a two poster ramp installed so that will definetly help.

 

[smallfry]

£1200 to repair /weld a rear crossmember ? 😲😲😲

There will be other areas not far behind, so I wouldn't bother. New chassis time I think, for that sort of money.

All the bolts will fight you, but the two post lift will enable you to lift the body off in one piece. 

[Arjan]

Hmm..... Serious money.

I suggest you have a look to see if you have a mobile welding service in your area, prepare the chassis and get a it welded in in site.

It can be delivered up to Penicuik  (once the travel restrictions are lifted)

[oneandtwo]

To do a td5 properly the tank does have to come out, and worse still, be put back in again afterwards which means lifting and wedging the tub slightly while levering the tank into position.

I am coded in mig and Tig and have done plenty of rear crossmembers in my time. My thoughts are now after having rust and mud in my eyes for far too long that to repair the original crossmember in situ. Once the rear rails are rotten requiring a crossmember with extensions then the chassis is really too far gone to justify the expense of fitting it properly (unless you can do it yourself) and a new chassis is the way to go. 

ps Arjan that crossmember is 300tdi and earlier so won’t fit td5, sorry!

[Ed Poore]

£1200?!?!?!?!

I had a custom rear cross member built by a local trailer fabrication company, cut old one off and welded the new one in with change from £500. I didn't want a normal replacement rear cross member but went for a Nige / Black Sheep style C section out of 5mm steel with another 6mm plate between the chassis rails for the tow bar.

I dropped the fuel tank out myself and trailered the 110 down to them with the shot cross member attached so they could take measurements off it. Half a day later they'd chopped off the old one and fabricated a new one for me to inspect before welding it back on the chassis. Picked up the 110 the following day.

@davie get practicing with the welder as it sounds like you've already got one. Yes you can learn a bit from the welding course but nothing really makes up for practice. Get confident enough to plate it over and then save the pennies for a new chassis if that's where you want to go longer term.

[Ed Poore]

Just found some photos of the cross member before it was welded on:

Two minor mess ups that were made - I specified 30mm diameter for the jack points - forgot to clarify, ID not OD. And I should have extended the two edges out to the wings another inch to support the wing if required.

Having said that the cross member is so strong that I've contemplated but not got around to cutting out the jack points and welding up the hole.

[Anderzander]

4 hours ago, oneandtwo said:

To do a td5 properly the tank does have to come out, and worse still, be put back in again afterwards which means lifting and wedging the tub slightly while levering the tank into position.

When I did mine on my first Td5 90 I did drop the tank - but got it back in from the bottom. 
 

I can’t really remember how though ... other than  I swore and hated the job a lot, I also think I used a highlift to lift the chassis from the newly fitted crossmember.
 

Oh, and I remember that when I finally did get the tank back in I remembered that I’d forgot to clean the pump filter whilst it was out 😳

[paime]

20 hours ago, davie said:

Sadly i dont know an awful lot of welding - can glue odd bits together on thicker stuff with works invertor arc welder but its not something i would properly trust near a chassis yet.  

would love to attend a welding evening course to get some basics on mig and arc  - emailed some today in aberdeen to see.  

for anyone who has one of the invertor migs, how do you get on with it and whats a reasonable non rental bottle situation as cant justify big bottle of gas for all i genuinely need.

think going to speak to blacksmith and get mudflap brackets off too and plate bottom of x member all way to end from beside chassis rail as thats a good solid point it seems and just have a plate welded to new steel for mud flaps, do away with horrible debris hard to treat bit between two areas.  

Paime you are right already thinking save pennies and do chassis in year or two as mot man hints at it,  mate and i did a series one yrs ago so am sure we could manage it again, all be it slower and with some reading of tech stuff here for hints.    Interestingly enough in a month or two he will have a two poster ramp installed so that will definetly help.

 

I stuck about 8 plates and 2 outriggers onto various sections of my chassis last year and did it all with Halfords gas. Not the cheapest way to do it and if i knew i would have that much to do i would've gone for a bigger bottle but it was all very possible. I was a total novice welder before i started (and still very much am) but i practised on off cuts before i set about the chassis and was absolutely delighted when things stuck as i had intended. Before i went down the DIY route i got quotes from a mobile welder and i think it was going to be £300 per outrigger from what i can remember. If he found more rust as he went along which, lets face it, he definitely would've done, then that price would only go up. At least if it's your welder, wire, gas and time you can just keep welding until you're happy at very little extra cost.

[cackshifter]

Re refitting the tank, and I do realise it's more expense, but, the YRM tank guard bolts up from underneath.

[oneandtwo]

3 hours ago, Anderzander said:

When I did mine on my first Td5 90 I did drop the tank - but got it back in from the bottom. 
 

I can’t really remember how though ... other than  I swore and hated the job a lot, I also think I used a highlift to lift the chassis from the newly fitted crossmember.
 

Oh, and I remember that when I finally did get the tank back in I remembered that I’d forgot to clean the pump filter whilst it was out 😳

Yep it goes in from underneath, but is a lot easier if you leave the ten new crossmember to tub bolts out, open the front doors and then jack the rear of the tub up and wedge it up; this gives an extra inch or so clearance which is what is needed for the tank to clear the tub reinforcing channel which effectively locks the tank in place once the tub is dropped back down. It’s still not the easiest job.

[davie]

i do have access to works parweld arc welder and have glued a few bits back together with it but some was 5mm to 5mm so full blast and fine and other was on a trailer so 2mm filling in a crack.    its lack of knowledge as to why rod keeps sticking when trying to strike arc gets me frustrated.

spoke to local blacksmith and he is going to supply some steel and rods for me to practise with so will at least be able to try and try some more ,   maybe when world more stable buy a wee mig but for now at least i can try.   would still love to do a basic course so i can see why i am going wrong, once over frustration i may well improve a bit.

 

[mickeyw]

Not saying it can't be done, but I wouldn't want to arc weld a chassis repair.

From a skill requirement perspective MIG is so much easier, especially as you will need to weld some sections while upside down.
As with any welding method, if you've never done it before you will need to practice on something that doesn't matter first, and it sounds like your friendly blacksmith is the right place to find some scraps. Practice, practice, practice until you are happy with the result. Practice welding the right way up, then vertical and upside down. Depending on the quality of welder wire speed may need a tweak when doing the latter two.
Before and during, Youtube is your friend for advice.

My first MIG welder was pretty cheap and crappy, but I did a LOT of work with it and learned even more.

[neil110]

look up black sheep if you want a SOLID rear crossmember

[Ed Poore]

Just now, neil110 said:

look up black sheep if you want a SOLID rear crossmember

Doesn't build them anymore.

My view has changed a bit since but when I made an enquiry a few years ago the response I got was rather curt and rude. I understand he had a few health issues at the time and consequently got screwed over with his business but he could have simply stated that rather than the response I got. He's still very active on mig-welding but not doing any Land Rover cross members any more because he got fed up of them.

[reb78]

For some weird reason, I can weld better with Arc than I can with MIG. My MIG is a decent Butters machine, whereas my ARC is the cheapest buzzbox freebie you will ever come across - someone brought it round for me to try and never took it away again (they didnt want it back).

[davie]

19 hours ago, cackshifter said:

Re refitting the tank, and I do realise it's more expense, but, the YRM tank guard bolts up from underneath.

Now thats interesting - didnt realise they did those since last time garage took my tank out to do fuel pump they cut the tank gaurd end to end and then welded back together.   yet to understand why?

[oneandtwo]

4 hours ago, davie said:

Now thats interesting - didnt realise they did those since last time garage took my tank out to do fuel pump they cut the tank gaurd end to end and then welded back together.   yet to understand why?

Because the original tank guard is a stupid design requiring it to be slotted in between the tank and the tank brackets - there was no thought put into removing the tank in service. The guard was one of the first thing to be fitted to the chassis on the production line, then the tank, then the tub.