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Cheap'ish 609 axle builds


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9 hours ago, Red90 said:

The roll calcs do not work as he is not using a triangulated 4 link, but a 3 link with panhard.  You need to use the 3 link calculator to get the roll info.

Yes, I know.... more interested in getting the AD down at present if I can, otherwise it’ll be some radius arms. Will stick the numbers into the 3 link sheet with the current track bar & post up.

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11 hours ago, landy_andy said:

Yes, I know.... more interested in getting the AD down at present if I can, otherwise it’ll be some radius arms. Will stick the numbers into the 3 link sheet with the current track bar & post up.

The only way you will do that is by raising the chassis end of your 3rd link. Im sure you have done what you can, but with those chassis limitations, your anti lift is going to suck.

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3 hours ago, uninformed said:

The only way you will do that is by raising the chassis end of your 3rd link. Im sure you have done what you can, but with those chassis limitations, your anti lift is going to suck.

Yup, tried that and to get anywhere sensible the link needs to be inside the gearbox. No room on the frame side due to the exhaust and even then at full stuff the link is hard up against the oil filter with a 4” axle top link to get a reasonable axle end separation approaching 25% of tire height.

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3 hours ago, Red90 said:

If you "can do anything" then throw all that stock geometry in the garbage.  At the lift height you are at, it gives poor geometry.  You want 4 link in the front with much longer links. To me it is crazy limiting yourself to stock mount locations.

Been looking at it this morning, without remaking the exhaust Y pipe, and relocating the oil filter I’m really stuck with room for the upper link at full stuff for a reasonable axle link separation and am also limited by my saddle gas tanks & skid plates.

If I use the existing front mount as a hard point and build a bracket that sits below & behind it I gain 5” of link length and reduce the effective angle of a radius arm to about 10 degrees or less over mounting in front with the bracket I posted earlier.

So, from this...

E57B9155-3029-4B33-B6BB-DA7CA917EFEB.thumb.jpeg.c0d1d06e412a05718b6149d3fa63c44a.jpeg

to this...

F06079D9-995E-4239-A417-8DDEDC2D0377.thumb.jpeg.f1246048d0571ac8dad038de1302dce5.jpeg

Would make it much better geometry and less reactive to pushing up.

Really need to get the truck on the road and make the 609 axles a ‘bolt in’ swap (apart from the panhard & steering links etc) in spring or when I can afford to buy/build the 3rds.

Thinking the existing front chassis mounts are beefy enough to accept some rotational moment from the new brackets being hung off them. Could always brace into the frame behind them with a bolted through gusset.

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So, if I use my existing 3 link x-member as a datum, make the upper link off he front of it, make some new lower mounts that move the frame end back & downwards, then accept an axle separation of 6” we get.....

6569DE94-D1A4-49B4-963A-A1A44086056A.jpeg.4b2b2e9d25e98305fc3adc6aa1357ad8.jpeg
 

This is using the stock panhard frame & axle locations so, those numbers will probably change  a bit once I get the axle under the truck and adjust for the revised steering linkages.

Doing this gives me just enough up travel for the upper link to not crunch the oil filter. If I made that remote then I’d be able to squeeze a bit more axle separation but as the links are virtually above & below centre line it’s probably not worth it.

Thoughts.....

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Can you push the axle end of lowers outwards to gain a little triangulation? That would lower Axle Roll Axis. Or remote your oil filter, move both upper and lowers up to get a similar Anti lift number with lower ARA. If you are keeping the stock Radius arm mount and building custom off that, make sure your arm doesn’t fowl on it at full up cross articulation.

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8 hours ago, uninformed said:

Can you push the axle end of lowers outwards to gain a little triangulation? That would lower Axle Roll Axis. Or remote your oil filter, move both upper and lowers up to get a similar Anti lift number with lower ARA. If you are keeping the stock Radius arm mount and building custom off that, make sure your arm doesn’t fowl on it at full up cross articulation.

I should be able to move the axle end of the lowers out by 1” on both sides (or at least right up against the inner C’s) due to the axles being wider, will check tonight.


At worst, these numbers are significantly better than radius arms 😁

Have already ordered a couple of joints to mock up the arms to check for binding at full stuff & flex 😉

Edited by landy_andy
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On 9/18/2020 at 6:27 AM, landy_andy said:

I should be able to move the axle end of the lowers out by 1” on both sides (or at least right up against the inner C’s) due to the axles being wider, will check tonight.


At worst, these numbers are significantly better than radius arms 😁

Have already ordered a couple of joints to mock up the arms to check for binding at full stuff & flex 😉

Managed to move the axle ends out a small amount, with the brackets hard against the inner ‘C’ the RAA dropped to 6.18 degrees. Best we can get I think for now.

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2 hours ago, uninformed said:

every bit helps.

 

What rim size and offset/backspace are you running?

 

15” Stazworks double beadlock, with 2.5” of back spacing.... should have been more but they messed up the order. Didn’t know until they arrived & too late then to fix them then.....

Did get the rear axle just about finished, just needs a few threaded blocks to fix the brake lines too welding on the back side.

6E36F51B-BBD3-4BDE-B703-9ED8F3079B14.thumb.jpeg.2c3e6862d2d32564d92fc70be88f4f9f.jpeg

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I’m guessing 8” wide or more? 
 

Also guessing you already had them... and I probably should not say this as you can’t change what you have done, but if building custom housings why not make them wider and go positive offset.. you get a few benefits.

 

I also would have triangulated your rear trailing arms. 
 

but keep at it bud. 👍

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8 hours ago, uninformed said:

I’m guessing 8” wide or more? 
 

Also guessing you already had them... and I probably should not say this as you can’t change what you have done, but if building custom housings why not make them wider and go positive offset.. you get a few benefits.

 

I also would have triangulated your rear trailing arms. 
 

but keep at it bud. 👍


Yup, already had the rims and can’t afford to replace them and loose $3500 as realistically no one wants 15” rims these days... most common size here for trail trucks is 17” now.

i moved the rear arms out a bit (1/2”) but I want this a straight swap in and I know it works as is. Now back to finishing off the truck so I can get it decal’d.... winter is coming !

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  • 3 months later...

Did some more work on the front axle, drew up the spring mounts... made some mock-ups out of foam board.

001(4).JPG

After a few tweaks had then water jet cut & bent.

001(3).JPG

Front axle as far as I can get it now until it’s under the truck & I can figure out the new frame side track bar mount, track & steering linkages.

001(2).JPG

 

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Decided I didn’t like the ‘drop down’ radius arm mounts, so went back to a simpler mount that bolts directly into the stock location.

001(6).JPG

After tacking them up, I decided they looked too chunky... so, they went on a diet !
 

001(7).JPG

Third link mount was also adjusted to give a bit more up travel (drawn upside down).

001(8).JPG

Just waiting now for the parts to be recut in 3/8” material. Then to assemble along with a new 3rd link x-member.

Front spindles and hubs are now off to the machine shop for modifications to take 35 spline shafts & convert to LR lug pattern.

 

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On 1/9/2021 at 3:47 AM, landroversforever said:

For your chassis end of the upper link... I've designed mine with some adjustment in mind so I've got 3 different positions. From memory they're 1" spacings vertically and they give me about 10/15% change in the AS value per hole change.

I looked at doing that but it just won’t work without major modifications to the exhaust to give the up travel clearance at full bump.

I welded out the new cross member yesterday, should have the frame end link parts this week.

001(9).JPG

The calculator numbers with my SG style setup are not great but it does for what I need, the numbers for this setup are somewhat better and I’m mostly building it to get away from the LR axle weaknesses and lack of readily available spares here.

Realistically it’ll see virtually no highway use and the trail heads are only 5 minutes from my house.

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I went back and checked my old 3 link calculator numbers, didn’t look right so I remeasured the truck and found an error... correcting the numbers, the anti-dive works out about 190%.

The new frame mounts work out about 240%.... eek ! I guess it’s back to the drawing board.

I can’t move the centre link up on the cross member as noted above, so, time to revisit the radius arm frame mounts. Using the calculator, if I drop them 4” and move them back 2” we get an AD of about 130%.

Modifying the existing parts, this is what we have so far...

001.jpg
 

Am thinking a rear support bracket as before and a gusset across the back of the side plates will be strong enough as it’s all in 3/8” material.

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With my lower link brackets I've got them underneath the chassis rails in line with the gearbox cross member. Sandwiching the chassis with a plate down each side. I'm then going to tie the outer plate forwards to the Radius arm bracket. You could do something similar in reverse and tie it back to the crossmember bolts. I've opened mine up to M12 I think it is from memory and the bolts end up nice and snug in the anti-crush bits inside.

 

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4 hours ago, landroversforever said:

With my lower link brackets I've got them underneath the chassis rails in line with the gearbox cross member. Sandwiching the chassis with a plate down each side. I'm then going to tie the outer plate forwards to the Radius arm bracket. You could do something similar in reverse and tie it back to the crossmember bolts. I've opened mine up to M12 I think it is from memory and the bolts end up nice and snug in the anti-crush bits inside.

 

I see that from your drawings, my issue is I have dual saddle tanks with skid plates on both sides of the truck and to access those holes will mean removing then & installing a complete new custom fuel cell in the rear where the jerry can holder is located. Would mean I loose overall fuel capacity & that’s not something I want. If you get stuck without fuel in the back country here, your either walking out or your calling a helicopter to come rescue you.

Am thinking I might be able to tie into the lower holes of the 3 link cross member, if not will have to rely on torquing the 1” bolt to lots of ugga dugga’s !

 

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10 hours ago, landroversforever said:

Tying it into something would be good in case of any forces that aren't straight ahead. 

With it sandwiching the radius arm mount, shearing off a 1” bolt will take a serious amount of force. I could see the mount failing first maybe.... need the 30mm wrench I ordered today to remove a radius arm & finish up my drawings.

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