Constantly replacing Hub Seals, but why?

[Snagger]

14 hours ago, Gazzar said:

Isn't there a part of the hub that acts as a drift? The drive flange, or something?

 

That works well on post rationalised axles (1980+), where the inner and outer bearings have the same diameter and the seal is only a fraction bigger, but earlier axles have a smaller bearing on one side and I’m not sure if the seal outer diameter is slightly larger than the outer bearing (and thus drive flange lip), which is what the OP has.  Worth checking, as it’d be a good tool for the job if it does work on early axles.

[Snagger]

7 hours ago, Landrover17H said:

Yes, I did wonder about all this, I'm redoing it 4-5mm in, but not sure I see what difference it'll make. But why  fight it?

Because if you don’t drift the seal all the way in against the shoulder inside the hub, it probably won’t be entirely square, resulting in the lip oscillating on the land and pumping oil out, and probably small weeps between the hub and outer edge of the seal too.  If you look carefully at the sectional diagrams, you’ll see the internal diameter of the hub is slightly bigger where the seal seats than where the inboard bearing seats.  You need to press the seal right up against that step.

[Landrover17H]

Now

5 hours ago, Snagger said:

Because if you don’t drift the seal all the way in against the shoulder inside the hub, it probably won’t be entirely square, resulting in the lip oscillating on the land and pumping oil out, and probably small weeps between the hub and outer edge of the seal too.  If you look carefully at the sectional diagrams, you’ll see the internal diameter of the hub is slightly bigger where the seal seats than where the inboard bearing seats.  You need to press the seal right up against that step.

Now, knocking it in as far as it'll go is the way I did in the first, 'to the step' my thinking was just that, it's guaranteed square. Then I watched a Youtube S3 video and was shown to fit flush. To date I'm now going to try 4.5mm from flush, but that's not fully 'home' to the step, or is it?

At the moment, so that it's akin to the coiler fitment,   I'm trying to find a double-lip seal number....

Edited April 17, 2020 by Landrover17H
(its and it's) or risk my English teacher's words ring.

[Landrover17H]

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Landrover17H

[jessejazza]

On 4/15/2020 at 11:41 PM, Jon White said:

Ah yes sorry - I was slightly wrong. I knew the late ones were different but I incorrectly assumed they were the same bearings.

im aware that the late ones and the coiled ones all use the same seal, and I’ve used the proper tool as a friend has one. 

I always found the leather seals much better on early hubs rather then the modern lipped seals.

[My LR is S3 1971 SWB].

I fitted the leather ones on the rear and from what I can deduce they are flush with the top of the hub. The rubber/neoprene ones on the front I found seemed to seat about 1-2 mm down.

BUT I seem to have the same trouble as the OP. Again as you can see in the pics the breather could be blocked which is causing oil to be forced out past the centre and the paper gasket for the hub may not have done it's job. Oil inside the drum as well. I am thinking I should replace the rear with rubber/neoprene?

Be grateful for any advice.

[FridgeFreezer]

No hub cap?

[jessejazza]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

No hub cap?

I just didn't get round to putting them on - I wanted to make sure I'd done the job ok. Clearly somehow I haven't. Front is ok as you can see in the pic. If fitted the hub cap is not there to collect oil - just there for looks.

[Gazzar]

It's there to stop oil, that's why there's a seal on the hub flange.

Oil runs between the flange and the shaft.

[Anderzander]

Is it your seal land on the stub axle ? 

[steve b]

Is the special felt rubber faced seal fitted behind the halfshaft washer/nut?

Modern leather seals seem to be too hard in my experience

cheers

Steve b

[Snagger]

The hub cone does catch the oil that makes its way up the splines.  Why on earth would anyone think otherwise? 😳

[Anderzander]

Gosh I didn’t read that properly - it is there for catching oil, not aesthetics- but if it’s pouring out you probably have a problem further down the shaft. 

[secondjeremy]

I agree the centre hub cap should be there.

If it leaks round the drive flange joint it may well be the 6 flange bolts have stretched - which means they don't tighten properly.  They're 3/8 BSF. and stretch on the threaded portion.  This can be checked by running a die or nut down the thread.

 

I'm sure what happens is that as they're convenient they get heaved on during assembly.  I think there are 3 torque figures gven in various enditions of the workshop manual - between 27 & 30 lb ft.

[Bigj66]

On 4/15/2020 at 11:19 PM, Landrover17H said:

Thanks, I've been doing homework on this, and it seems late S3 hubs also have a double-lip seal. Appears these seals go on to be found on coilers. 24 Spline (I think) I'd find a set and if they can be made to fit yet these appear to be unobtainium. I'm getting extremely fed-up with this! I'd like to put these in to get the double-lip seal, and have done. Not sure what that extra 4-5mm does, and why it should make a difference, but I'll push the seal in anyway. I'll use an old seal. Here's the 'official tool'.

Am I the only one who thinks £60 odd quid for that is a tad expensive? 😳

[Gazzar]

40 minutes ago, Bigj66 said:

Am I the only one who thinks £60 odd quid for that is a tad expensive? 😳

It's about the price of these tools. Value for money if you are using it every day. I make my own. It would take me a couple of hours to turn one. So, charge out rates and materials? 

[Jon White]

1 hour ago, Bigj66 said:

Am I the only one who thinks £60 odd quid for that is a tad expensive? 😳

There is a seller on eBay does turned plastic ones for about a tenner which work very well. I have one of them 👍🏻

[jessejazza]

13 hours ago, steve b said:

Is the special felt rubber faced seal fitted behind the halfshaft washer/nut?

Modern leather seals seem to be too hard in my experience

cheers

Steve b

Yes the felt seal is there. Modern leather seals? The original were the neoprene/rubber ones? All I can say is that the one's on the front rubber/neoprene work fine and so putting the leather type on was a mistake. The rubber/neoprene lip makes a seal but the leather/metal type just make a butt joint. Oil is on the inside of the drum so they're not making a seal.

So I'll get a pair of those rubber/neoprene type and replace. Hub caps I agree do help and are supposed to be on but in my case I left them off as replacements were required I didn't get round to fitting them when they arrived. They seem a pain to get off and get knackered in the process.

[jessejazza]

Craddocks do a RTC3510 and leather/metal types RTC3510G and an RTC3510 (which is what I had before). Not sure how the RTC3510G differs as the pic is poor.

[jessejazza]

6 hours ago, jessejazza said:

Craddocks do a RTC3510 and leather/metal types RTC3510G and an RTC3510 (which is what I had before). Not sure how the RTC3510G differs as the pic is poor.

Sorry typo error RTC3510L

[Snagger]

I don’t understand why you’re talking about the hub seals on the stub axle when you’re showing a leak of either the drive flange gasket or the cone.

The circular hub seal, leather or rubber, stops grease and oil getting into the brake drum and contaminating the brake shoes.  Any oil that leaks into there and then escapes the drum through the four drain holes or out the lip would show on the inside of the wheel and tyre, not the outside.

Any oil contaminating the visible side of the wheel can only come from two sources - the paper gasket between hub and drive flange, or the o-ring between drive flange and centre cone.  It could be that damage to one of the mating faces is preventing the gasket or o-ring from working, as could an off round cone or excessively long drive flange bolts that bottom out before pulling down on the flange, but it really shouldn’t be hard to eliminate.  But driving around with the cone missing will lead to exactly the mess that you’re showing, even with brand new felt washers on the half shaft.

[Anderzander]

He said he had oil inside the drum too - which was why I asked about the seal land on the stub axle. 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

[Snagger]

Is that still happening?  Maybe I misunderstood- I thought the problem was now just this, but if the hub seal is still leaking, then I would now suspect that either seal land or seals are incorrect spec and there is a mismatch.  Have you tried sitting a seal onto the seal land before fitting to the hub, to test how snug it fits?  I’m pretty sure the later seals are a bigger diameter than the early type needed here pre and post rationalised, 1980).

[jessejazza]

When I did the front I pressed the seals down (rubber type) and they were about 1-2mm recessed which is what folk have said. They are clearly fine.

When I did the rear FIRST time I did not put them fully down and left them flush as the Haynes resto manual says. I didn't notice a leak at the time but as I had the drums off a couple of weeks later - I thought I had not put them down far enough like I did with the front. So on second thoughts (and retrograde thoughts!) I put the RTC3510L type on the rear as I had them. One guy said he thought they were better so I put them on. As you can see in the pics this morning the metal/leather type clearly are NOT sealing. Oil on the outside could be partially due to a paper gasket not fitted properly. I found one would not go over the holes correctly and had to expand a couple of holes and I think I broke the gasket... but put it on with a smear of grease. BUT there is still a lot of oil there so as Snagger suggests the 'O' ring is poor. The majority of oil is due to the seal not working.

Yesterday I've ordered a bearing/hub kit to do the whole rear job again along with new bearings.

What I don't understand is that if the metal/leather are supposed to work - it does not make a seal on the land, shaft or edge of the hub. The rubber seals (I call from my process plant engineering days) are mechanical seals. The oil pushes from behind forcing the seal against the shaft and the edge of the hub - rubber being ideal as it expands to make the seal when the oil is warm/hot. With leather/metal - it seals against the shaft with the leather expanding but not against the hub. Maybe I split the leather as I was fitting it and that is the cause of the leak. But by design there is no seal against the land or hub as it is metal.

Also should one use grease on the bearings and seating the rubber oil seal in the hub. I DID... because the manual says. But one is then restricting the amount of oil reaching the oil seal. The PO (or workshop) I noticed had used moly grease which had mostly washed out by the oil. I used LM grease which is thicker and tends to remain in the bearing race better. If the design was for the bearings to be lubricated by oil then one does not want to put grease in there as well.

As soon as I get the bits I will investigate... next week now probably.

 

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by jessejazza

[Gazzar]

Did you soak the leather seals first? I prefer the rubber versions, the leather leaks unless the vehicle is used a lot. 

And don't use moly, I've heard reports of it doing strange things to wheel bearings. LM will sort itself out with the oil, don't worry about it.

[jessejazza]

1 hour ago, Gazzar said:

Did you soak the leather seals first? I prefer the rubber versions, the leather leaks unless the vehicle is used a lot. 

And don't use moly, I've heard reports of it doing strange things to wheel bearings. LM will sort itself out with the oil, don't worry about it.

I did soak the leather ones for an hour or so in engine oil but maybe that was not long enough. But I still don't see how it can seal as well as the rubber type. I didn't use moly - like you i don't like it... just using up a tin I bought years ago as copaslip. I'll use a smear of LM on the bearings and hopefully she will be sorted. Just waiting for the courier.

many thanks for the help.