2.5 na oil leaks

[flyingmossman]

Hello all, 

This is my first post on here and I am a true green horn in the LR world. I bought a 1987 tithonus defender 110 hard top past february. 160k km on the clock. I am not sure of any previous history, whether maintenance, or import, or military wise. I am looking to getting, at least, the military history. to date I have replaced the glow plugs, battery,  I have serviced the engine oil, filter, and fuel pump filter. replaced the rocker cover gasket (which was horribly leaky and which the bolts were finger tight.) I have coolant to replace and drop the current rad fluid (which seems to be mostly water(?). I would like to drop diff oils and more importantly transfer box and gearbox oils as I am having trouble finding the correct fluids here. I know the LT77 calls for atf dexron II but i can only find III and up. I have replaced all door seals front and rear and have seals for the windscreen (cracked and leaky) and the bulkhead to windscreen seal. It is too cold here to strip the truck down outside yet

My main question today is about an oil leak near the oil filter housing/pump. part ETC5347. I am not certain this is the culprit but I see some signs as read on other posts. ie. oil leaking near oil pressure sensor and onto filter seal and down to the bottom of the filter. Dripping then onto the prop shaft. I have also found diesel leaking from the left or engine side of the fuel pump (lucas cav). These two leaks are priority number one right now. I am also leaking fluid from the transfer box/gearbox area and I would like to drop and get new gaskets installed along with fluids. 

The clutch seems good once I adjusted the bolt from the pushrod in the clutch box. It was backed all the way out and the pedal was very sloppy. There is a bit of backlash, but OK for now. Once I get oil leaks in engine fixed then I can tackle axle etc. 

Any help on ANY of these topics would be great but most important for me right now is the oil leak near the oil pump filter area. 

 

[western]

between the engine block & oil filter head is a gasket, this may be the cause of your leak, picture in this link 

https://www.brit-car.co.uk/product.php/85054/1082/gasket_oil_filter_housing_to_block_2_5l_defender

if it's not the gasket leaking it could be the oil pressure switch allowing oil to weep out between the plastic cone part & the body. or the o ring seal between body & oil filter head 

https://bearmach.com/oil-pressure-switch-suitable-for-series-vehicles-br-1628?glCountry=GB&glCurrency=GBP&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgfXJy72s6QIVNoBQBh3fsQsEEAQYASABEgKRS_D_BwE

also check the filter is fully screwed on tight.

if possible add a few photo's of the leaking areas & we can help. you can upload direct from your phone ot computer, just use the 'choose files' in blue below the reply box 

 

[flyingmossman]

On 5/11/2020 at 2:54 PM, western said:

between the engine block & oil filter head is a gasket, this may be the cause of your leak, picture in this link 

https://www.brit-car.co.uk/product.php/85054/1082/gasket_oil_filter_housing_to_block_2_5l_defender

if it's not the gasket leaking it could be the oil pressure switch allowing oil to weep out between the plastic cone part & the body. or the o ring seal between body & oil filter head 

https://bearmach.com/oil-pressure-switch-suitable-for-series-vehicles-br-1628?glCountry=GB&glCurrency=GBP&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgfXJy72s6QIVNoBQBh3fsQsEEAQYASABEgKRS_D_BwE

also check the filter is fully screwed on tight.

if possible add a few photo's of the leaking areas & we can help. you can upload direct from your phone ot computer, just use the 'choose files' in blue below the reply box 

 

thanks for the response! I will upload some pictures later today to show where I can find oil and/or diesel. It is a beautiful day out finally so I will have some time to snoop around.

[flyingmossman]

[Snagger]

My 12j tended to leak oil through the gaskets between the block and the vacuum pump - the throttle bracket sandwiched between them wasn’t well stamped and was the cause.  An application of RTV sealant instead of the gaskets helped.  My 200Tdi (same filter and housing) gets oil just like yours, despite new gaskets and the oil filter being replaced and on tight.  I think the block face is not milled very well, so I may try RTV on that too, applied sparingly to each side of the gasket.

For the fuel leak, check the unions on the hoses.  They have olives that tend to wear and weep, so replacing those works wonders.  Hopefully it’s that, not the pump itself.  If it is the pump, I can recommend DieselBob Tuning to sort it out.

[flyingmossman]

17 hours ago, Snagger said:

My 12j tended to leak oil through the gaskets between the block and the vacuum pump - the throttle bracket sandwiched between them wasn’t well stamped and was the cause.  An application of RTV sealant instead of the gaskets helped.  My 200Tdi (same filter and housing) gets oil just like yours, despite new gaskets and the oil filter being replaced and on tight.  I think the block face is not milled very well, so I may try RTV on that too, applied sparingly to each side of the gasket.

For the fuel leak, check the unions on the hoses.  They have olives that tend to wear and weep, so replacing those works wonders.  Hopefully it’s that, not the pump itself.  If it is the pump, I can recommend DieselBob Tuning to sort it out.

good to hear! I also have a feeling more so now that the oil sump is a leaky culprit, but certainly I will check the unions. At least at the injectors they are dry I know that. I will have to have a real close look. I haven't ever loosened or tightened any of the unions at the pump. 

Another question I have is about the bleed valve on the pump. Pretty sure the order of operation is loosen lower lock nut then loosen upper. Please tell me if that is incorrect. I bled the system and it seems to be free of air. 

I will also get a few pictures of transfer box and gearbox. T box (LT77) is leaking to a point of seven pumps of atf from the jug every tank of fuel. Hoping to drop fluid and put a new seal on the plate an hope that solves that!

 

[flyingmossman]

been a long time, 

 

A small amount has happened since:

I can start with fuel pipes. I had noticed, shortly after tightening the unions at the injectors, a drip, drip,drip that progressed to quite a bit more than that. I overtightened them (a costly lesson learned)

-All four pipes were replaced and seated nicely with no leaks. 

I have bought a timing tool kit but haven't the balls to crack that open yet. I will get there as I think the timing is out. 

Second, is the oil leaks.

-The sump seal is still my main culprit for leaks but has now just got to the point where I have to add small amounts of oil to keep it topped up to N on the dip. I have a new gasket for that and will change that out when I switch to a lower viscous oil for winter.

-The leak at the gearbox/transfer box area is still a concern. I think it may be the o ring in between the two, and that is something I have no idea where to start. so I keep atf with me but really don't need to fill quite that often. Checked often though. And the gear box oil seems to stay at its proper level. 

Third issue: Thermostat?

-The truck coolant level temperature always stays around mid point. But the oil temp gauge is always on the 3/4 range or higher (at highway speeds) when the engine is "warmed up." 

Writing this out, is making me rethink everything entirely. If the water temp is spot on at 1/2 or 50%, what is causing the oil temp to be so high? Not the coolant system, unless the sender unit is out of whack or the coolant temp gauge is whacked. I have an oil cooler in front of the radiator and the hoses have small leaks around the clips, but maybe I will have to dig deeper. 

Lastly is the rear axle (in general) 

It is pretty clunky, with plenty of backlash. when rotating the tires, I noticed a bit of play on the flange and splines of the rear shafts. I couldn't tell if it was spline wear or flange but wanted to get an opinion on whether new shafts would be a good go. and Ive looked into the terrafirma HD flanges etc.  As well as, maybe, new diff setup. When I changed the diff oils there were no shards of metal, very small shavings and bits but no chunks or teeth. 

-P.S. When warmed up the engine has a bit of blow by, which I am guessing a head gasket is the culprit there. The breather return and intake were not too, too oiled up but a small bit of residue, which I have since cleaned out and am monitoring, was present.  I am waiting on a genuine head gasket kit but it has been months and months (covid and all). So who knows with that one. I would like to be able to do that myself. 

 

-Grover 

[Snagger]

Regarding the read axle, until you remove the flanges from the shafts, you won’t know if the shafts are worn, but they are harder the pan the flanges, so if the play isn’t major, you might just need flanges.  A lot of the aftermarket “HD” flanges are pretty soft and have sloppy splines, so unless you want to by from Ashcroft, I’d recommend using more standard genuine flanges.  Check the A-frame ball joint if you’re getting a lot of clanking  from the axle, though.
 

I think you’ll be fine with Dextron III ATF.

The engine oil temperature sender is the same one as the coolant sender, and the gauge is almost certainly manufactured identically.  The oil does eventually get hotter than the coolant because it doesn’t normally have a dedicated cooling circuit, so it’s normal on these engines and Tdis to see the oil a little warmer than the coolant.  As long as it’s not hovering around the beginning of the red and you do change the oil on the 6k schedule, it should be fine.

[tychoS]

On 8/13/2020 at 8:34 PM, flyingmossman said:

Second, is the oil leaks.

-The sump seal is still my main culprit for leaks but has now just got to the point where I have to add small amounts of oil to keep it topped up to N on the dip. I have a new gasket for that and will change that out when I switch to a lower viscous oil for winter.

......

 

Third issue: Thermostat?

-The truck coolant level temperature always stays around mid point. But the oil temp gauge is always on the 3/4 range or higher (at highway speeds) when the engine is "warmed up." 

.....

Lastly is the rear axle (in general) 

It is pretty clunky, with plenty of backlash. when rotating the tires, I noticed a bit of play on the flange and splines of the rear shafts. I couldn't tell if it was spline wear or flange but wanted to get an opinion on whether new shafts would be a good go. and Ive looked into the terrafirma HD flanges etc.  As well as, maybe, new diff setup. When I changed the diff oils there were no shards of metal, very small shavings and bits but no chunks or teeth.

 

Oil leaks

In general, the origin of a Land Rover oil leak need not be near where the oil is seen. Any oil leaked will be blown around by the wind.

Do clean and degrease the entire area thoroughly, then start up the engine and look for leaks, if none are showing, then drive half a minute down the road and back, then inspect again.

If it goes from "no oil showing" to "oil everywhere", then clean and degrease once more and dust the entire with baby powder, then try the start up & inspect and drive a very short distance & inspect again.

You can buy degreaser in big jugs to fill sprayer bottles. Thats by far the cheapest route and as a Land Rover Owner you will be needing lots of it 😃

Thermostat

Have you flushed the coolant system?

Take the radiator out of the Land Rover. Put the garden hose into one connection and see what comes out.

Rust flakes, slimey nasty semi-solid stuff, odd coloured liquid - its all a possibility.

Flush the engine coolant system as well - gently - with the garden hose.

Then refill with proper mixture of antifreeze/antirust and demineralised water, air out the system (open the uppermost plug, and jump up & down on the front fender)

Remove the thermostat - put it in a pot of water, heat it on the stove, put a thermometer in the water. See if it opens around the temperature its supposed to. Or replace it strait away without bothering to test it, they are cheap.

Rear axle clunk

Can be halfshaft/drive flange, differential or propshaft.

Undo the drive flanges and pull out the halfshafts. If the rims are the original steel rims or similar, its can be done without removing the wheels. Its 5 bolts and a paper gasket. Once out have a play with them by hand. Any play is readily seen/heard/felt.

Propshaft - get beneath, grab hold, pull and turn, listen and look. You can see and feel any play in the U-joints or the slider.

Differential - Put the halfshafts & drive flanges back in, undo the propshaft from the diff. Rotate the differential by hand. You can readily feel any play or absence of it.

Spareparts in general

Spareparts like driving members, driveshafts, propshaft U-joins and gaskets for a Land Rover are cheap. Do avoid the cheapest offerings though and buy the higher quality brands. Otherwise you will have to do the jobs over and over.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2020 by tychoS

[flyingmossman]

On 8/20/2020 at 4:54 PM, tychoS said:

 

Oil leaks

In general, the origin of a Land Rover oil leak need not be near where the oil is seen. Any oil leaked will be blown around by the wind.

Do clean and degrease the entire area thoroughly, then start up the engine and look for leaks, if none are showing, then drive half a minute down the road and back, then inspect again.

If it goes from "no oil showing" to "oil everywhere", then clean and degrease once more and dust the entire with baby powder, then try the start up & inspect and drive a very short distance & inspect again.

You can buy degreaser in big jugs to fill sprayer bottles. Thats by far the cheapest route and as a Land Rover Owner you will be needing lots of it 😃

Thermostat

Have you flushed the coolant system?

Take the radiator out of the Land Rover. Put the garden hose into one connection and see what comes out.

Rust flakes, slimey nasty semi-solid stuff, odd coloured liquid - its all a possibility.

Flush the engine coolant system as well - gently - with the garden hose.

Then refill with proper mixture of antifreeze/antirust and demineralised water, air out the system (open the uppermost plug, and jump up & down on the front fender)

Remove the thermostat - put it in a pot of water, heat it on the stove, put a thermometer in the water. See if it opens around the temperature its supposed to. Or replace it strait away without bothering to test it, they are cheap.

Rear axle clunk

Can be halfshaft/drive flange, differential or propshaft.

Undo the drive flanges and pull out the halfshafts. If the rims are the original steel rims or similar, its can be done without removing the wheels. Its 5 bolts and a paper gasket. Once out have a play with them by hand. Any play is readily seen/heard/felt.

Propshaft - get beneath, grab hold, pull and turn, listen and look. You can see and feel any play in the U-joints or the slider.

Differential - Put the halfshafts & drive flanges back in, undo the propshaft from the diff. Rotate the differential by hand. You can readily feel any play or absence of it.

Spareparts in general

Spareparts like driving members, driveshafts, propshaft U-joins and gaskets for a Land Rover are cheap. Do avoid the cheapest offerings though and buy the higher quality brands. Otherwise you will have to do the jobs over and over.

My thought on the flanges and shafts is this: I noticed quite a bit of play between flange and shaft like worn splines. But also notice play left to right or pushing in and pulling out of the shaft. This from what I understand can be coming from the pinion? I have a thought to replace the shafts and flange but wouldn't want to change just the flange and not the shaft. I have priced out the HD flanges available and probably will go with something like that. Available through Roversnorth.com or lucky8offroad. 

I will keep posting to the thread with updates!

thank you for all the input! 

most of the tests you mention above, I have implemented. I flushed the coolant system well and replaced fluids. the old coolant was gross! the new green stuff is working well and as I check routinely for levels, I haven't noticed any loss of coolant or discoloration. 

As I mentioned before, the coolant temp is actually spot on which leads me to believe the thermostat is operating correctly and opening at the right temp. the Oil cooler though is another story! and I haven't gotten to that yet haha. 

my plan is to drop the oil, take off sump seal, and replace. Take off oil filter housing and check oil temp thermostat to see if that (my inkling of the culprit) in fact does open. once the oil is dropped I will flush the oil cooler and pipes and give that a good clean in diesel. 

I am having a gear head client of mine to work with me on checking the rear differential. He was a volvo, porsche, and LR mechanic for many years here in the states. 

The prop shafts have been greased regularly by me since ownership (February acquisition) and there is no play in the U joints if at all.

[western]

The oil thermostat has no bearing on the oil temp, on the oil filter head at the upper forward end is either a blank cap or a temp switch see my replies in 

https://forums.lr4x4.com/topic/101645-oil-temperature-sender-puzzle/

[Snagger]

It would be pretty typical to see the oil temperature slightly higher than the coolant temperature once all warmed up. A 12J really doesn’t need an oil cooler, though.  You could remove the system and blank the filter housing ports for reduced vulnerability.  It does look like the oil stat port might be weeping, and that has an o-ring in a bevelled void that gets hard with age, so is worth replacing.  You must fit exactly the right size o ring, though - to thin and it won’t seal, too thick and it’ll overfill the void and hold the housing out, so you’ll crack the bolt lugs off as you tighten it down.

The biggest oil leak in that area seems to be from the cam gallery cover plate, the rectangular steel plate with a bracket to the injection pump.  That needs a simple paper gasket and some RTV sealant.

[flyingmossman]

On 9/1/2020 at 1:13 PM, Snagger said:

It would be pretty typical to see the oil temperature slightly higher than the coolant temperature once all warmed up. A 12J really doesn’t need an oil cooler, though.  You could remove the system and blank the filter housing ports for reduced vulnerability.  It does look like the oil stat port might be weeping, and that has an o-ring in a bevelled void that gets hard with age, so is worth replacing.  You must fit exactly the right size o ring, though - to thin and it won’t seal, too thick and it’ll overfill the void and hold the housing out, so you’ll crack the bolt lugs off as you tighten it down.

The biggest oil leak in that area seems to be from the cam gallery cover plate, the rectangular steel plate with a bracket to the injection pump.  That needs a simple paper gasket and some RTV sealant.

Snag, thank you. 

I will have a look today and provide an update. I am leaving for work for the week out of town and Grover will be in the garage at our shop for the time being. When I get back I will take a few bits apart while I have a nice dry indoor location. 

I think mainly, the oil temp is up is when my rpm is high ie. highway driving. I try not to go above 55mph ever and even that is a bit stressful on the box and rpms. Good suggestion with the oil cooler. Would it make sense to flush the oil cooler before just omitting and blanking? Coolant temp, again, never gets above 50% really ever. Which tells me the thermostat opens to control that. The oil temp gauge sits at 75% or higher once "warmed up." and that is traveling for maybe 15 minutes at avg. speed around 50 mph give or take. I am waiting on a rear diff gasket so I can work on adjusting the pinions for back lash as I have noticed the rear diff case is pretty hot to the touch after driving in the conditions stated above. 

 

[Snagger]

From what you describe, I think your oil temperature readings are inaccurate.  At those speeds, the oil will not be unduly hot and a cooler will be unnecessary.  However, flushing the cooler and hoses and replacing the stat may change things (though I doubt it).  
 

You could try swapping the senders for the coolant and oil temperature gauges - I believe they’re the same for both, so if you then get a high coolant temperature but mid scale oil reading, then it would suggest the sender is bad.  If that doesn’t make a difference, you could try swapping the wires over for the two gauges, so the coolant sensor wire goes to the oil sender and vice versa to test the gauges.

 

Just as a check, what spec oil are you using?

[flyingmossman]

I am using 15w-40 oil and was planning on dropping that for the winter months (suggestions?). I will definitely have a go with the swapping wires and/or sender today! 

thanks again! 

[Snagger]

It’s the right oil.  I have seen petrol and diesel versions of that grade in the UK.  I think it’s a matter of the diesel version having more detergent to clear away carbon, but I’m not sure if there are shear strength modifiers that may influence the friction in the crank bearings.