Electric Defender

[landroversforever]

The Unicorns and world free of pollution is my biggest gripe with the BS around electric... Harry's Garage on Youtube did a very interesting video the other say which had a segment looking at the co2 per Km of an electric car based on where it was charged. 

[FridgeFreezer]

This video shows very well how far batteries still have to go:

 

[smallfry]

2 hours ago, Snagger said:

The trouble with the debate is that, as always, there are organisations which are incredibly agenda driven deliberately spreading lies - the EV manufactures tell stories of unicorns and rainbows and a world free of pollution, while their vehicles use raw materials that are environmentally damaging to extract and still use fossil fuels to run the factories and power much of the electric grid, and boast claims of efficiency and practicality that ignore long range drivers and winter conditions; the oil companies and many manufacturers love to spread lies about the fire risks of electric vehicles, that you will never find a charging point, that their batteries are going to fail after three years and that they produce more pollution per mile than petrol or diesel, while saying how clean burning modern engines are (using faked figures) and how much more virtuous the oil industry is than the cobalt industry.

You really have to wade through a lot of PR and bull from both sides to try to work out the reality.  It’ll work for some users, and not yet for others.  Eventually, it should be viable for almost everyone, but how soon that will be is anyone’s guess.  But the concept is very good, and we’re nearly there.

Totally agree with this. Its all smoke and mirrors by those with vested interests.

To me though, it seems to be swapping one type of environmental damage for another.

Another issue for me would be the lack of character, which I believe IS important for most of us who have these vehicles. I could live with a vehicle that takes me to work and back though, but I still do not believe the environmental damage (ATM) to generally third world countries is acceptable.

[cackshifter]

The video is interesting but the elephant in his room is the difference in efficiency of the 2 technologies (and ignoring where the electricity actually comes from), which he just ignores. You probably only need to store about a third or a quarter of the energy that is in petrol  for a battery car because the motors are more efficient, and the ability to recover energy of electric systems. Even so, what he says is right in principle, just maybe not quite as bad for battery as he makes out. And all these things ignore the effects of other systems which most drivers expect, like heaters, wipers, lights, all needing power. ( I was allowing for the Series users that can do without such things).

[landroversforever]

7 minutes ago, cackshifter said:

The video is interesting but the elephant in his room is the difference in efficiency of the 2 technologies (and ignoring where the electricity actually comes from), which he just ignores. You probably only need to store about a third or a quarter of the energy that is in petrol  for a battery car because the motors are more efficient, and the ability to recover energy of electric systems. Even so, what he says is right in principle, just maybe not quite as bad for battery as he makes out. And all these things ignore the effects of other systems which most drivers expect, like heaters, wipers, lights, all needing power. ( I was allowing for the Series users that can do without such things).

You've still got losses in getting the electricity to the car from the point of generation. Then add that in the current form they're incredibly heavy and any benefits of efficiency soon trot on out the door. 

[Snagger]

1 hour ago, smallfry said:

Totally agree with this. Its all smoke and mirrors by those with vested interests.

To me though, it seems to be swapping one type of environmental damage for another.

Another issue for me would be the lack of character, which I believe IS important for most of us who have these vehicles. I could live with a vehicle that takes me to work and back though, but I still do not believe the environmental damage (ATM) to generally third world countries is acceptable.

There will always be some level of environmental damage for anything we do.  It’s a matter of finding a way of doing the least harmful (not necessarily the same as the least amount) of damage.

Sourcing materials from third world countries could be a very good thing, giving poor populations an income they would otherwise lack.  The problem there is the corruption endemic in those nations, using very abusive employment practices and very damaging processes environmentally, the bosses and governments creaming off all the profits for personal embezzlement.

The character of vehicles would be changed by conversions, but there is nothing to stop people adding a sound emulator.  It won’t be the same, missing the vibration, the gear changes and even the smell, but even the aroma can be duplicated if it matters.

[Snagger]

6 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

You've still got losses in getting the electricity to the car from the point of generation. Then add that in the current form they're incredibly heavy and any benefits of efficiency soon trot on out the door. 

Some, but nothing like the losses in getting fuel from refineries to forecourts.

[Cynic-al]

The problem is everyone wants a solution that works without us changing our lifestyle. That doesn't work with the batteries available now for electric cars for so many reasons. 

The charging at home has to be linked to a smart network which can change the charge rate of cars based on demand and 'green' supply. Otherwise 5.30 every night everyone gets home, plugs their car in regardless if it needs a 10% charge or a 90% charge as they want it topped up. They then go inside, switch the lights on, kettle on, tv on, electric oven on, electric shower etc. The peak for those few hours would be huge but by bed time most of the cars have finished charging and the demand drops off. 

Grid watch is a good website to see what spare capacity we have. It's distorted at the moment due to corona but usually we are very close to capacity and importing electricity from abroad. It's nice to see the headlines "we didn't burn any coal today" but the fact is there are a lot of days when we need to to meet current demand. Plus we are still burning wood, gas, oils etc etc often whilst dumping green energy as we can't balance the fluctuation in generation - the smart charging network would help with this. Nissan and Tesla do the battery banks and there are some neat old school ideas for this including underground air compressors and huge weights being lifted and lowered in mine shafts but the fact is we don't have it and every time you change energy you lose some of it. Coal is about 35% efficient so similar to a car engine, combined gas is about 70% efficient so I guess better in that way. 

Workplaces and public places need thousands of charging points so that if you cannot charge at your house you can charge somewhere else where you are going to be doing something else so that you don't have to sit and wait. The energy needed to move a car is huge and this won't just require charging points it will mean transformers, sub stations, cabling as well as generation. 300 miles would be fine for me 80% of the time. The problem at the moment is that the 20% I would struggle to find a charger as I work in remote places and would have to divert to motorways etc. I did look on the charging point website to work out if its practical but a lot were at garages and things that they use for demonstration so you can't actually go and use them. For most people it's a weekend away or a holiday, there is no way the caravan sites will want you to have a cable out the caravan window drawing 13 amps for a couple of days to charge the tesla. 

I still think they should be using light commercial to develop the technology not the public. All the parcel vans have capacity for batteries, do a lot of stop start and city work so electric would be great for smog reduction and most are parked up all night at the depot so can charge, the chargers know they have until 6am to charge the battery so can fluctuate charge rate based on supply. 

 

The reality is people need to change their liftstyle. Become more local, less globalisation, travel less, walk more etc etc. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Cynic-al

[Snagger]

The first target for electrification should be taxis and busses, especially the latter, which spew out huge black clouds worse by several orders of magnitude than any other vehicle is permitted and almost all in built up areas.  Why on earth is that allowed?

[landroversforever]

I've wondered a few times what things would be like if the trolley busses were still about in the towns and cities. Certainly removes the need for battery capacity on board. 

[Peaklander]

Probably better than trams. They vibrate very heavily on the rails and it must be horrible to live next to them. Gawd knows what sort of radio interference there is off the overhead pickup although that's probably not so much of a problem with digital encoding or FM rather than good old AM.

[cackshifter]

Transport is undoubtedly the biggest electrification challenge, but in the UK new buildings can't have gas boilers from 2025. That's going to gradually consume grid capacity, especially as air source heat pumps are at their worst coefficient of performance when the air is coldest - everything is Ok till eventually you get a really cold spell, when suddenly demand spikes, and there's no solar, and usually very little wind on a frosty night.

If we weren't so determined to go all electric I could imagine a hybrid vehicle could be very efficient, if you could run a small generator at a constant speed (or turned off) where the heat engine could be tuned to be most efficient - then you wouldn't need so much battery power, you'd have a source of heat for cabin heat, and you could use the power of the electric motor for traction. Maybe a small gas turbine to keep the weight and size down?

 

[FridgeFreezer]

Just to be clear - I absolutely agree that EV's are the future and are far better for the environment overall than ICE cars. Electric motors are an awesome way to power a vehicle for numerous reasons. I just can't make the practicalities stack up for myself or a large portion of the population while batteries are still as they are now.

The arguments about how the electricity is generated, where the precious metals and nasty chemicals come from are valid but IMHO fairly moot - the power stations will change over time as greener stuff comes through and all manufacturing produces nasty by-products, I think the overall cost/impact stacks up pretty well over the lifespan of the vehicle.

Nationally, provided it's done right, electrification of infrastructure is a good way to future-proof stuff - electricity is a pretty good way to move energy around, you can generate it in lots of different ways, use it to power almost anything and it's pretty much safe and clean.

The sticking point has always been storage - currently our best storage for large amounts of electric is to pump water up a hill when we don't need it and let it back down again through a turbine when we do.

[mmgemini]

Nobody commenting on the electric Defenders that Land Rover make themselves,

 

[jeremy996]

My truck runs mostly on cooking oil, so I don't have too much of a vested interest, but my wife and I have been looking at solar panels and a potential electric car purchase in the next five years. Most people worldwide don't do much more than 40 miles a day, so the longer ranges of modern electric cars are a waste of battery capacity and excess weight. My wife's Fiat 500C does around 30 miles a day from home to Grantham and back, so a Leaf or Zoe would work, but is just too boring. The new Fiat 500 will come as a full range incuding an electric convertible, so one of those will do, (although the £30k it might cost could be a stumbling block).

Technology is moving on quite quickly, with solar panels that work sufficiently well when they are not pointed directly at the sun, (so our roof becomes viable), and batteries that have a cost per kWh of less than US$100. Reuters were reporting that Tesla/Chinese sources suggested they could get down to  $60/80 per kWh, https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/14/teslas-secret-batteries-aim-to-rework-the-math-for-electric-cars.html. If you can afford the purchase price, then running an electric car is cheap. 

It is noticeable that my clients who have electric cars won't go back to ICE, (I'm an IFA, so my clients usually have enough capital to buy shiny things; they are usually surprised how much their fuel bill drops by).

[jeremy996]

3 minutes ago, mmgemini said:

Nobody commenting on the electric Defenders that Land Rover make themselves,

 

Unfortunately they were not sold to the general public. Saw one at the Eden Project and spoke to the operator and he was quite keen; bags of torque and few traction issues.

[mmgemini]

What abouth the South African game vehicles

 

[Snagger]

4 hours ago, landroversforever said:

I've wondered a few times what things would be like if the trolley busses were still about in the towns and cities. Certainly removes the need for battery capacity on board. 

Trams have been installed in quite a few EU and US cities and trolley busses operate well in Hing Kong and some other Asian cities.  Their removal from most UK cities was folly, but so was much of Beeching’s vandalism.

[Snagger]

53 minutes ago, jeremy996 said:

My truck runs mostly on cooking oil, so I don't have too much of a vested interest, but my wife and I have been looking at solar panels and a potential electric car purchase in the next five years. Most people worldwide don't do much more than 40 miles a day, so the longer ranges of modern electric cars are a waste of battery capacity and excess weight. My wife's Fiat 500C does around 30 miles a day from home to Grantham and back, so a Leaf or Zoe would work, but is just too boring. The new Fiat 500 will come as a full range incuding an electric convertible, so one of those will do, (although the £30k it might cost could be a stumbling block).

Technology is moving on quite quickly, with solar panels that work sufficiently well when they are not pointed directly at the sun, (so our roof becomes viable), and batteries that have a cost per kWh of less than US$100. Reuters were reporting that Tesla/Chinese sources suggested they could get down to  $60/80 per kWh, https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/14/teslas-secret-batteries-aim-to-rework-the-math-for-electric-cars.html. If you can afford the purchase price, then running an electric car is cheap. 

It is noticeable that my clients who have electric cars won't go back to ICE, (I'm an IFA, so my clients usually have enough capital to buy shiny things; they are usually surprised how much their fuel bill drops by).

Solid state batteries, and batteries with full lithium anodes are going to make a big difference.  Sulphate batteries should be cheap.  Perovskites solar cells will be much cheaper than silicon, once they can find a coating to stabilise them.  There is a lot of research bringing rapid advances, so powerful but affordable home solar and high capacity, long life, cheaper batteries should be available within a couple of years.

[FridgeFreezer]

2 hours ago, jeremy996 said:

Unfortunately they were not sold to the general public. Saw one at the Eden Project and spoke to the operator and he was quite keen; bags of torque and few traction issues.

The same is true of electric golf karts used in similar applications around closed places like that - again, they can leave them on charge all night every night and they're not doing any long journeys.

[Dave W]

I keep looking at electric options and may end up with an electric mountain bike to commute to work. I'd love to see a practical conversion option that could provide a conversion option for existing vehicles but right now there's nothing out there so we'll have to wait for the tech/science to catch up.
Range on current electric vehicles always seems to assume a downhill journey with no traffic, dry, warm, conditions and a tailwind. Something that used to be the case with petrol/diesel cars but was standardised eventually. In theory I can get 15MPG out of my Defender and did do it once on the A1 on a Sunday morning travelling at just below 60MPH. Realistically though I can't repeat that in normal conditions.
A friend of mine bought a small electric car for his commute, it has a stated range of 80 miles and his commute is a round trip of around 40 miles so only half of the range of the vehicle. First day he ran out of power 8 miles from home and had to be recovered, contacted the dealer to be told that there was no problem with the car but there were too many hills on his route... so he ended up with a car that actually has a range of around 32 miles and that's when it's not raining. The solution was to install a charging point at work but that kind of makes a mockery of the suggestion that cars get charged at night...
Regarding the grid infrastructure, much is made of the "they'll only charge at night" BUT if you also take into account the fact that the government is also looking to phase out gas heating in the same time period (new builds from 2025, all by 2050 is the aim), how will the grid cope with both higher electric heating demands and car charging demands and still get everyone's car charged overnight ? Better start bringing those nuclear generators on line !

[Simon_CSK]

6 hours ago, Dave W said:

" BUT if you also take into account the fact that the government is also looking to phase out gas heating in the same time period (new builds from 2025, all by 2050 is the aim), how will the grid cope 

\i have been working for many years to develop low energy houses. There are a huge number of options and one where heating is not required at all. I have a design which requires no heating for a house other than natural scources i.e fridge, tv lights and body heat. The advantage is that while the house is warm in Winter it is also cool in summer. The technology is there for dwellings and it isn't expensive it just requires considered application.

I have bought a site, just before lockdown, and intend to provide a number of low energy houses.

[Snagger]

14 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

The same is true of electric golf karts used in similar applications around closed places like that - again, they can leave them on charge all night every night and they're not doing any long journeys.

That’s a good analogy of how most cars are used.  It suits the vast bulk of owners, but obviously not all.  It’s the outliers who need long range driving, a pc heaved either by enormous battery capacity or ultra rapid charging, or ideally both, that is the sticking point for many people interested in it.  That is what battery research is trying to solve, along with cost and less environmentally or socially damaging materials, with several approaches making big strides.

[Snagger]

2 hours ago, Simon_CSK said:

\i have been working for many years to develop low energy houses. There are a huge number of options and one where heating is not required at all. I have a design which requires no heating for a house other than natural scources i.e fridge, tv lights and body heat. The advantage is that while the house is warm in Winter it is also cool in summer. The technology is there for dwellings and it isn't expensive it just requires considered application.

I have bought a site, just before lockdown, and intend to provide a number of low energy houses.

The other big efficiency device to end reliance on gas for heating and hot water is heat pumps.  They are staggeringly efficient, something between 1500 and 2000%, from what I have read ( ie they recover 15-20 times the thermal energy from the surroundings compared to the electrical energy required to run them).  There is an enormous heat pump system in Glasgow, using the Clyde, heating a bunch of facilities (public buildings, I think).  Ground pumps, air pumps water, where streams or water bodies permit, are a great source of energy.  It’s quite possible to use internal air based heat pumps to cool the house in the summer, extracting the heat for the hot water system, so acting as air conditioning too. 

[mmgemini]

Range Rover Hybrid