Jump to content
WesBrooks

Suspension Mods for Faster Off Road?

Recommended Posts

I'll be basing mine around air suspension for the variable ride height, but it will never see competition.

I was wondering if the rubber would overheat with extreme use.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It depends on the spec. I suggest you get the cheapest Chinese hoses, that will ensure they will fail very quickly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was thinking of the air-springs themselves. I was assuming that under heavy use the air in the system may warm, as could the rubber boots that form the body of the spring?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If that is the case it would suggest the spring rate and profile may change as the vehicle is used too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You could add a cooling circuit, say, stainless steel wide bore piping, or even a water cooler. It depends on how complex you want to go, and how much you want to treat as a consumable. Change the bags every event? Compressing the air will heat it regardless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On a simple note at Land Rover level and not competition

My thoughts are, good shocks, progressive springs to try and avoid springs becoming coil bound, and hydraulic bumpstops. The bumpstops being the cause of the hard bangs when hitting bumps at a faster pace. I know mine crashes over bumps as big tyres on standard height suspension means the extended bumpstops hit. So if these could cushion that would help. 
coil over shocks being long and progressive absorb the bigger bumps better.

Well that’s what I think

would like to get hydraulic bumpstops to fit without having to modify the rear tub on a 90

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jon W said:

would like to get hydraulic bumpstops to fit without having to modify the rear tub on a 90

The P38 ones are a different construction - no idea what they're really meant to look like because these were knackered but might be a little more supple than the standard LR blocks.

FEBI BILSTEIN Rubber Buffer, suspension PEUGEOT,CITROËN 36849 516651,516651

Apparently Terrafirma do a bolt-on kit, best pic I found after a quick search: https://shop.challenger4x4.com/terrafirma-4x4-tf140-hydraulic-bump-stop-8072-p.asp. Little picture on the right hand side shows it installed. Although it looks like the Moose boys and girls had some fitted so perhaps @FridgeFreezer or @moose might be able to provide more insight?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yer having searched actually Terrafirma do a bolt on kit which fits with the rear tub on. It was the king suspension and Devon 4x4 kit I was thinking of which didn’t fit unless you had a tray back

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

the D44 king kit does fit with a full body tub, it just needs a smal section cut out & then boxed back in, mate has the full kit on his 110 pickup

 

Edited by RedLineMike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Air suspension - in the form of air shocks - is used fairly regularly in off road competition. It can work pretty well. 
Using LR type rubber bags in competition is something I would avoid, But if it's just for fun why not give it a go - risks assessed of course. 

However, the complexity of the system may increase cost quicker than you might expect. I would strongly suggest looking into coilovers, or even decent (not +2" off the shelf type) coil springs, and remote reservoir dampers.

regardless of spring/damper choice i would recommend hydro bumps.

Drop me a PM if you want any information on suspension choice, Coilover/Damper/airshock supply and tuning, spring rates etc, we supply and service Terrafirma and Fox stuff

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

   

On 5/17/2020 at 9:00 AM, WesBrooks said:

Bowler advertise a fast kit which merely namedrops Bilstiens (have them on my daily - skoda superb - very happy with them) and says different anti roll, stearing damper, new bushes, etc.

The Bowler fast road and rally setups are very good for a bolt on solution to  a standard defender - Take a look at some of the defender challenge footage. It wasn't uncommon for one or two of the drivers to keep up with/overtake scoobies on stage.

Going  a step up, take a look at the Bowler V6 110 Supercharged rally car. Live axle again but with some easily achievable modifications to geometry etc. - Radius arm all round, watts linkage rear, and Bilstien Coilovers. 
There is a video of it somewhere passing a tomcat at sweetlamb as if it was stood still! I can never find it on youtube though! It was seriously rapid!

as @RedLineMike states, springs and dampers are critical! thats where you need to spend the money. Anti roll bars are something to be considered to fine tune the car's "attitude" - Don't get me wrong they make a lot of difference, but this needs to be understood, and depends on driving style, terrain, and various other things. I would stick with the setup you have for anti roll bars for now, then play with them after springs/dampers

Increased caster over standard is something i only ever consider as a good thing. but you can go too far of course. 
 

 

On 5/18/2020 at 9:09 AM, RedLineMike said:

looking at the B6 i would say for road use / fast road they would be fine, for actual offroad use, there are better options out there

agreed!

On 5/21/2020 at 12:41 PM, WesBrooks said:

All interesting but the intended topic is mods to twin live axle suspension that would make landrovers better mannered at pace.

Also looking for advice refering to road legal vehicles.

I think the Ultra4 world is a great example of what both types of suspension can be like - For Land Rovers driving "a bit quick" on farm track type ground I'd definitely be looking at what the comp safari/hill rally guys run. 



The number one thing you absolutely need to do, is set the car up. whatever you buy, don't just bolt it on and call it done. If you can't rebuild and shim your dampers, be very sure that they are intended/set up for what YOU want. for that reason I would avoid them. Unless they are the defender challenge spec Bilstien piggy back dampers - hundreds of hours went into tuning them, but they are set up for a 90, with a cage, and a TDCI drivetrain. 

You need to calculate spring rates and spend a fair amount of time dialling in the damping rates. If you buy Fox, they normally ask what your vehicle is and what youre going to be doing with it etc, and put a preliminary setup in it that will be close to right.  Most other manufacturers put nominal shim stacks in and send it out the door, and there is no way the same damper will be correct for both a lightweight independent comp safari car and trophy truck! 

 

Sorry for the rabble. It's an interesting/relevant topic for me and I have only just spotted the thread. 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, WesBrooks said:

I'll be basing mine around air suspension for the variable ride height, but it will never see competition.

I was wondering if the rubber would overheat with extreme use.

 

I doubt the rubber would be an issue.

Being at different spots in your shocks could be very annoying for tuning though. Especially with bypasses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, discomikey said:

   

The Bowler fast road and rally setups are very good for a bolt on solution to  a standard defender - Take a look at some of the defender challenge footage. It wasn't uncommon for one or two of the drivers to keep up with/overtake scoobies on stage.

Going  a step up, take a look at the Bowler V6 110 Supercharged rally car. Live axle again but with some easily achievable modifications to geometry etc. - Radius arm all round, watts linkage rear, and Bilstien Coilovers. 

 

This one?

https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/107212/bowler-v6-110-defender-race-car

Interesting to see that Bowler does most projects with a single damper on every corner; I like that much more than the Ultra 4 12 damper solution.

Daan

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Daan said:

This one?

https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/107212/bowler-v6-110-defender-race-car

Interesting to see that Bowler does most projects with a single damper on every corner; I like that much more than the Ultra 4 12 damper solution.

Daan

 

its worth noting that due to class restrictions, its only unlimited & modified class that can run more than 1 shock per corner in ultra 4 ,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

True, but you can still have the hydraulic bump stop I think?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you can still have a hydraulic bump stop but are limited to a single shock per corner, so either a coil spring & a damper or 1 single coilover, which led to the decision for us to use a 3" coilover

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No apologies needed for rambling on topic! It's what I wanted. Good information thanks.

I'm mainly considering the air so I can tuck it down a little at high speed road use and have the option to rise it quite some way for tricky stuff if needed. So if i was using tunable bypass shocks would that mean one tuned height and others comprimised? Are the deeper sections of the shock normally tuned with firmer damping anyway?

 

 

Edited by WesBrooks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's the benefit of Radius arms on the rear rather than trailing arms and A frame?

I've a spare set of radius arms and a spare set of Axles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, WesBrooks said:

What's the benefit of Radius arms on the rear rather than trailing arms and A frame?

I've a spare set of radius arms and a spare set of Axles.

Someone will probably correct me but I think it's probably down to the way that the axle travel is done. In an A frame setup any vertical travel of both wheels is somewhat limited by the bushes and flex in the ball joint. The setup offers great articulation if one wheel is up and one is down but if both are going up and down you quickly bind up the bushes which is probably why I tend to go through them at a rate of knots.

In a radius / panhard rod setup the axle can travel up and down keeping the wheels vertical with relative ease. Yes you are also limited by bush flex on the radius arm (but Rose joints can eliminate this) but the panhard rod setup doesn't restrict movement as much as an A frame because its acting mostly in a vertical motion rather than horizontal and vertical like the A frame.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That was badly explained I think.

The A frame setup on the rear, because of it's orientation in the vehicle, forces the axle to be pushed rearwards if both are compressed. This then causes the bushes and springs etc to be wound up limiting travel to a certain degree. On a panhard setup (or 4 link) there is less resistance to this movement and it goes vertically up and down with comparative ease.

On the whole doesn't matter for the majority of stuff but high speed off road with soft springs I can see bushes a) not surviving long and b) quickly becoming the limiting factor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Daan said:

This one?

https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/107212/bowler-v6-110-defender-race-car

Interesting to see that Bowler does most projects with a single damper on every corner; I like that much more than the Ultra 4 12 damper solution.

Daan

 

That's the car. 

The dampers are built to spec ££££ bilstein and contain an internal bump stop system, which would replace the hydro bump as seen on U4 and some comp safari cars.

3 hours ago, WesBrooks said:

No apologies needed for rambling on topic! It's what I wanted. Good information thanks.

I'm mainly considering the air so I can tuck it down a little at high speed road use and have the option to rise it quite some way for tricky stuff if needed. So if i was using tunable bypass shocks would that mean one tuned height and others comprimised? Are the deeper sections of the shock normally tuned with firmer damping anyway?

 

 

Generally speaking, a normal damper or coilover does not have a specific ride height it is tuned for. 

Bypass dampers are a bit more complex and the position of the tubes determines a rising rate at a certain point in the travel. 

The reason they are used in Ultra4 is because they are much more tuneable to deal with some of the extreme terrains and the requirement of controlling the hefty weight of the axles we require to stay reliable. - more parts yes, but a night and day difference to a single coilover on a car that is required to change from Grade A fire road tracks to serious  rock crawling and back within the space of seconds.  

The ability to drop a couple of inches of ride height on the road is attractive, but you soon learn to adapt. As someone that has spent more than the average amount of time behind high powered "defender shaped objects" and defenders, you can confidently pedal them into a corner of set up well at normal height once you get used to it's attitude. And yes they respond well to a Scandinavian flick, especially discoveries with the heavier rear!

Just my 2p 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The bypass shocks look - at least from the exterior - a mechanically complex device.

Potentially contentious question but have they become overly mechanically complex?

I get the external reservoir but isn't all the extra valves just controlling two parameters? Resistance of the shock offers when the axle is falling relative to the chassis and resistance when the axle is rising relative to the chassis?

Edit: control of parameters with respect to position.

Edited by WesBrooks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, WesBrooks said:

Potentially contentious question but have they become overly mechanically complex?

More so than the electrically controlled active dampers found on a lot of modern high end vehicles? Thinking Audis and the like.

They might be complex but they are proven. Not heard (but haven't looked too be fair) of dampers failing in competition. They probably get more abuse on one vehicle in the Baja 1000 than most of us could give in a lifetime, plus I think most are normally rebuildable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is what I was thinking about yes  but not seen the electrically controllable offerings in the flesh.

I would expect OEM road car stuff to be overly (/negatively) comprimised by a desire to make assembly easy, so remote reservoirs and external valving/controllable restrictions would be met by strong resistance in the design rooms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We use cookies to ensure you get the best experience. By using our website you agree to our Cookie Policy