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All Spark and No Bark


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On 7/20/2021 at 2:12 PM, mikeh501 said:

I dont think you mentioned this earlier, but what is your MAP KPA showing when its idling? post a pic of tuner studio gauges. need revs, MAP, TPS, coolant temp, AF ratio, EGO enrich. Also screenshot your VE table & EGO control.

100 is atmospheric, i.e. throttle wide open, idling with closed throttle (and PWM and/or TB air bypass letting it idle) should be around 30-40. If its more like 80+ you have an air leak. Run your hand around plenum and can feel it.

MS works on MAP KPA and revs. If KPA is high the quantity of fuel is increased. Lumpy running, black smoke, smoking hot manifolds/cats, black plugs and poor running, fuel in oil etc etc all symptons...... Ask me how i know!

That's helpful stuff but until I run in the cam I can't let it Idle. I'm hoping some of my issues are injector related and that it's running lean on some cylinders and pig rich on others which is why not all the exhausts are glowing. At least I can refer to this once it is run in, I'm only aiming for 'not melting the heads' at the moment, fine tuning later.

I've done a fair amount of tweaks since the last run including the LPG bungs. If the starter motor hadn't snapped in half on the latest try I might have been able to confirm if any of it has helped. The injectors being ruled out will be a good step closer and at least I'll know they're cleaned and working hard to empty the tank.

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Just remember that the running-in time doesn't have to be continuous; you can stop it any time to check things, or let it cool down.

Get the injectors serviced first,

Cheers Charlie

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4 hours ago, Chazza said:

Just remember that the running-in time doesn't have to be continuous; you can stop it any time to check things, or let it cool down.

Get the injectors serviced first,

Cheers Charlie

Is this OK as I have never heard it before, it would make life much easier.

I've only took it as continuous running only? The books I've read (not many) even say not to turn the engine over by hand.

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I quote Crane Cams when I say it is OK to stop, the instructions came with the new camshaft and are also on their website.

I stopped mine once after 5 minutes to check for water leaks etc.

I smeared the lobes and lifter with assembly-lube, but by the time the engine had been rotated several times to check lift, etc. it is hard to see how anyone can avoid rotating the engine by hand. I was adjusting the Rimmer Brothers timing wheel, but even if you have the standard wheels, the valve timing still has to be checked. It is also nice to prove later that no pistons are touching valves.

I also primed the lubrication system with a homemade air-pressure primer, until I could see oil running out of the rockers; that way when it started there was instant oil pressure.

Crane Cams explains that the most pressure on the lobe tip, occurs when the valve is fully open, therefore you want the lobe to be there for a very short time, hence the high revs. I did 2500rpm for 30 minutes. 20 000km later all is well with the camshaft,

 

Cheers Charlie

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3 hours ago, Chazza said:

I quote Crane Cams when I say it is OK to stop, the instructions came with the new camshaft and are also on their website.

I stopped mine once after 5 minutes to check for water leaks etc.

I smeared the lobes and lifter with assembly-lube, but by the time the engine had been rotated several times to check lift, etc. it is hard to see how anyone can avoid rotating the engine by hand. I was adjusting the Rimmer Brothers timing wheel, but even if you have the standard wheels, the valve timing still has to be checked. It is also nice to prove later that no pistons are touching valves.

I also primed the lubrication system with a homemade air-pressure primer, until I could see oil running out of the rockers; that way when it started there was instant oil pressure.

Crane Cams explains that the most pressure on the lobe tip, occurs when the valve is fully open, therefore you want the lobe to be there for a very short time, hence the high revs. I did 2500rpm for 30 minutes. 20 000km later all is well with the camshaft,

 

Cheers Charlie

Thanks Charlie this is helpful and makes sense to me.

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Results are in from the injector testing and cleaning. I had 12 (8 on the engine and 4 spare)

Two on the engine were leaking (one fixed after cleaning), three (including one leaker) have spray patterns that make them fit for the bin and one spare is completely U/S.

So I did end up with a good set of 8.... But only a set of 8.

Oh well. Perhaps this will help with some of my running issues.

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Started it up again today as I have ran out of other jobs to do. I could MOT it next week if I can just get this running issue sorted.

It did fire up first time better than ever, no hesitation or stalling like it needed choke as it had last time but I still have the exact same red glowing exhaust issue. Now only on the driver's side bank, tt's gone from most cylinders at first, to only the rear left, to the whole right. This time the left side looked cold. They weren't though, I checked.

  • It's not fuel if the injectors are replaced and the other cylinders are running just fine
  • It's not air, there are no blockages anywhere
  • It's not timing, or it would effect all cylinders
  • There are no restrictions in the exhaust

All of the Googles say it is running lean, but how would that be moving around the cylinders like this? I want to enrich it again but last time that didn't help at all.

I wonder if the valley gasket is letting in air, I have disturbed it to do some of the work so perhaps this is sucking air and ruining the mixture. I guess the spray-something-flammable trick will solve that?

I'm so resigned to this thing never running properly it doesn't even bother me any more.

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To update as per the build thread, this is now running a lot better. The glowing is down by at least 75% to the point where you can just about see it if the manifolds are in shadow and it is about the same on all cylinders - I just couldn't see it last night. Still not ideal, but a lot less scary to behold and a lot cooler running.

I just bumped all the fuel figures up by 15 metric petrols (LH table is 'new', RH is what I was running before):

MS1.png.469a70bf4433e4c257961ad2752e0301.png

Advanced the timing by 5:

MS2.png.3ae0a59d658511ef735e3bf399ffdaf5.png

And this produced lower EGTs. As I did all of this before with no difference, my thoughts are that previously the injectors were not able to deliver the fuel required so any change in settings was meaningless when what was physically able to be delivered to the cylinders was limited. I think my timing marks are right so unsure how that's effecting it, but I will give it 5 more degrees and run again to see what I get and only increase the fuel if that doesn't work. I may back off the fuel if the timing has an effect.

This is what I get on the gauges just a few seconds after starting:

PXL_20210819_164101144.jpg.59443cb6b28319ca9f4038db902925e7.jpg

This was after a couple of minutes:

PXL_20210819_164351103.thumb.jpg.d22957c7d816af766706fdb694e1b736.jpg

What exactly is the red  lambda sensor gauge showing? What does this measurement mean for the mixture? I know this is the least of my concerns so I didn't focus on it while running.

I do have a bit of a misfire as well but I'm going to look at that when I can idle it.

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Your manifold air temp is - 40C, assuming you have correction configured for this, it could throwing things wildly out. 

What sort of lambda sensor do you have, narrow or wide? 

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If you change one of the less useful gauges for "air density correction" this should (i think) show you how much the fuelling is being tweaked due to the ECU's perception of the air temp. 

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On 8/20/2021 at 9:05 AM, ThreePointFive said:

Not sure how I missed that. Need to work out why that's going on... and naturally I have no idea if it's correcting for it or not.

I have a narrow band I think, it's the one that comes with the MS kit.

Narrow band basically behaves like a switch so the gauge is fairly meaningless - if the mixture is leaner than 14.7:1 the lambda switches to "less than 0.5v", if it's richer than 14.7:1 it switches to "more than 0.5v" and that's about all you can infer from the gauge so don't worry too much about numbers. The leaner it gets, the closer to 0v and the richer it gets, the closer to 1v, but there's no calibration to it and the numbers will vary with temperature and phases of the moon.

Also remember that lambda sensors are easily fooled by exhaust leaks, unburnt fuel from misfires, being cold / splashed with water, oil or other substances in the exhaust gas, and being bonked or dropped... general rule is trust your nose, if it smells pig rich it IS pig rich, the sensor could well get coated with fuel and read super-lean.

In normal running when the ECU is running closed-loop you'll see the lambda sensor voltage flicking back & forth constantly as it makes tiny adjustments - green trace on the bottom here is O2 volts, red trace is ECU correction:

datalog_l2b_motorway.jpg

 

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Thanks for all the above.

Good news - the cam is run in. Bad news, it's the MAT that's causing the red hot exhausts. I plugged it back in to run it, straight back to the bright red. Tried more fuel, more advance, nothing worked.

Thought back through and the only thing that had changed was that I sorted the connection to the MAT (it was a loose connector). Unplugged it and straight back to the very dull red from before.

I've now run it for the full 30 minutes, so I can idle it now and the timing looks good. The mixture is horrible though and I think too rich.

However..... I think the cam is buggered. A very loud, very annoying clicking noise coming from number 7, which I don't think is exhaust. carp.

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The lambda wont be helping and its probably buggered due to heat/fuel in your exhaust. For the moment turn off EGO correction as it will be effecting the fuel right now. You do this by going to EGO in basic settings and making it only work over 6000rpm or something. Buy a new one from Nigel. Whilst your there by 16 new spark plugs as these wont be at their best given all your troubles, and a second set once youve got it running happyish.

Fix your MAT sensor. It will be delivering more fuel right now. The reading means you dont have continuity, so its likely wiring.

BTW - both of the above I had in my build! plus the air leak.

The upside is you dont have an obvious air leak!

What is your REQ_FUEL in basic settings? your VE table looks pretty high to me. Also are you running a PWM for idle? is it turned on?

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No! Thought I had it when I found the loose nuts on the exhaust yesterday and checking the passenger side push rods (where the noise was coming from...) and it running much quieter after.

Today, first start up....

Rough as a badgers and clacky like it's air cooled. It's a horrendous noise.

Took off the driver's side rocker cover - as I should have yesterday FFS - two push rods can be pushed down, almost to the point I could take them off the rocker. Stuck the camera down there and it's not the tappet body that is moving but the innards. Now I get that the oil gets pushed out and they do this but to end up this slack seems wrong and the other side are not like this.

Rotating the engine and it pushes like it should and goes not-loose:

PHO00011.JPG.b6f397d5b1cb8af611e96e09a18a7b1a.JPG

Is it a problem with valve adjustment causing the tappet to bottom out, hence the clack?

 

What have I broken?

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