All Spark and No Bark

[Bowie69]

Yep, sounds good.

What brand were the lifters?

[ThreePointFive]

They came from Turners but were unbranded in little plastic tubes like film roll ones.

[Chazza]

Turners sell good products, I bought all of my parts from them.

Have you run it at 2500rpm to get the lifters primed?

[ThreePointFive]

It's been run at 3,000ish for about 10 minutes just on Monday so they should be full by now.

[elbekko]

Did you have enough oil in it?

[ThreePointFive]

It did, I check it before every run.

So stupid question, is it fcuked?

[Bowie69]

I'd have a chat with Turners, I'm tempted to say either faulty lifter, or maybe  blocked oil way to the lifters. Which cylinders is this on?

[ThreePointFive]

Had a long chat with Turners, they really are excellent. They suggest I run it for longer, there might be air trapped or something similar, but we're not ruling out a failed tappet.

So I need to clock up 30 or so minutes more running before we know how to proceed.

MOT cancelled. 😣

[missingsid]

Sorry to hear that the MOT has been cancelled as this is a milestone for progress. But great that you have Turners providing support.

My S1 project has taken years to complete overcoming technical issues on a tight budget (periods of unemployment interlaced with work) but it is so close it just needs £100 in std parts plus insurance to finish. After finding spare parts to sell to make funds available,we used it on my sons birthday instead. So back into the container it went for how long I don't know but it is not a good environment as it can be a damp preasure cooker.

Here's to you solving you problem and getting it on the road.

[smallfry]

Those lifters have no oil in them. When they are full, they will feel rock solid. New ones especially will not bleed down that quickly, even overnight. If the others on that bank are working correctly (and it sounds like they are,) IMO the lifters have either dirt in them, OR, and I have come across this before, no oil feed hole in the side ! In all the V8s I have had and worked on, I cant remember any that have taken longer than about ten seconds to go quiet from first start (new lifters) although this does feel like all eternity while you are waiting ! I would be inclined to pull the offending ones to have a look, and maybe disassemble them, clean, and fill with oil manually.

There does not appear to be any (or much) oil on and around the lifter, which would run down the pushrod. I dont know if this is significant ? Is oil getting to the top of the engine ? Anyhow, without trawling back through the threads, are you sure you have sufficient oil pressure ?

When adjusting the preload, aim for higher end of adjustment. Remember that as the valve train wears (or beds in) you get less and less preload. It must be done with the lifters dry.

The only proper way to do this, is with different length or adjustable pushrods. Anything else alters the valve geometry, but this only becomes a real problem on extreme lift camshafts, causing side loading on valve stems.

I personally do not subscribe to this rubbish about running the engine for 20 minutes or whatever at high revs straight from first start in order to "run the cam in". As long as the lobes are coated properly with lube, it should be fine. A high idle speed is sufficient, and serves to fill the lifters.

I cannot imagine they bu**ered about like this at the Chevrolet/Ford/Chrysler and even Rover factories doing this to every engine ? All these engines were basically the same format, and they made millions of them, and premature camshaft wear was never a feature.

Sorry you are having all this hassle with it. So disheartening. If you were nearer I would give you a hand with it, although I wouldnt have a Scooby Doo with the Megasquirt.

[Chazza]

15 hours ago, smallfry said:

...

I personally do not subscribe to this rubbish about running the engine for 20 minutes or whatever at high revs straight from first start in order to "run the cam in". As long as the lobes are coated properly with lube, it should be fine. A high idle speed is sufficient, and serves to fill the lifters.

...

Believe what you like.

I had a brand new camshaft, wear most of its lobes off on the brand new lifters, because I let it idle when it was new. All of the lifter faces were badly worn, or scuffed despite having assembly lube smothered all over them. It was an expensive lesson.

The second camshaft from the same manufacturer was run in at 2500rpm and it is still in fine working order.

Please explain to me why you think running an engine at 2000 rpm or higher, is harmful?

[FridgeFreezer]

@smallfry when I rebuilt the V8 in the 109 I had a couple of lifters that took until about 5 miles up the road and a really good revving to stop sounding like a bag of spanners.

[ThreePointFive]

Decided I couldn't look at the big pile of embarrassment this weekend so going to jump on it again tomorrow.

Any ideas how I can check the oil flow to the lifters is sufficient? The rocker assembly was pretty full when I took it off, but I guess it would be if the oil was getting in but not out.

[Quagmire]

To check the rockers you can run it with the rocker covers off, but anything much above idle will make a mess as oil gets flung everywhere.

For the lifters themselves I am not sure... If it was an old dizzy driven pump I might have suggested removing a couple of lifters at a time and running the pump with a drill to see what is being delivered to each lifter bore. Not sure how is best to proceed with the crank driven pump setup...

 

 

 

 

 

[ThreePointFive]

MOT is booked for next week, perhaps prematurely. As it's SORN, I can't drive it away if it fails and it is quite likely on emissions.

I've noticed the MS map from Nige is called 4.0 with PWM (or words to that effect). I don't have a PWM as I wanted to keep things simple to begin with, I may experiment at a later stage when everything else is set up correctly.

The PWM settings are in closed-loop mode and have a load of settings available but none to just switch it off. Will the absence of a PWM where the map is expecting one cause me issues?

[Bowie69]

You can drive to and from an MOT either to home or a place of repair even if SORN..... 

 

No valve won't make the slightest difference to the running, thankfully

[mikeh501]

15 hours ago, ThreePointFive said:

MOT is booked for next week, perhaps prematurely. As it's SORN, I can't drive it away if it fails and it is quite likely on emissions.

I've noticed the MS map from Nige is called 4.0 with PWM (or words to that effect). I don't have a PWM as I wanted to keep things simple to begin with, I may experiment at a later stage when everything else is set up correctly.

The PWM settings are in closed-loop mode and have a load of settings available but none to just switch it off. Will the absence of a PWM where the map is expecting one cause me issues?

did you manage to fix your MAT and lambda?

 

 

[ThreePointFive]

Nope. It runs well enough, clattering aside, and is probably a bit too rich (stinging eyes in the garage sound familiar?) but nothing about it is ringing alarm bells for me. I've got a few days to make sure it can safely idle for a while without getting too hot and is generally running well. The actual running of the car is only a small part of the MOT and I need it on the road to properly set it up. I only need it to be reliable and safe in the hands of a complete stranger.

The MOT station is just up the road and has no knowledge of my vehicle or its history so I'm not looking for any favours. Just going to YOLO it through and use the fails as a work list to guide effort.

[mikeh501]

unless you've done it already id just turn off he lambda. take literally 30 seconds. theres an easy way of setting idle in the MS instructions too to get it more sensible. good luck with the MOT. I was worrying too but mine flew through and mine is 94 so needed cats!

[ThreePointFive]

Yeah I did that as per your suggestion, I have a new lambda sensor ready to go in but I don't think I have time to wire it in before the test. I'm just going to go by ear and nose as per all of the advice on your thread, which is pretty much answering all my questions but it seems like you had an even more complicated time than I am.

[mikeh501]

Yeah it was a mare lol. I’ve got it half decent now and just tweaking for driveability. Completely redid my ve table last few days so I’ve got more cells where the engine spends most of its time. Also realised I’ve never actually done AE properly as I didn’t understand what to do. I can tell you that even small changes make sooo much difference in drive ability of the engine.

 I know others get away with no PWM but I’ve got it working and it’s much better for it. Would pretty much stall when using winch and had to tickle the throttle to do idle pull aways and I can do both now with no trouble.

if you ever want a chat or someone to look at your tuner studio and ask stupid questions let me know

[ThreePointFive]

Going back to the tappet side of things, how do you know if there is sufficient lubrication getting around?

I was under the impression oil is meant to run down the pushrods to the tappets but the manual makes no reference to this, so did I dream that?

Have turned it over on the starter to get oil flowing without it going everywhere and I can see oil is coming out of the base of the rocker assembly arms, how can I check it's circulating internally in the assembly? Should it be leaking at all or free-flowing out along the shaft?

[Quagmire]

If you run it with the rocker covers off at idle you should see it pooling in the heads and kind of oozing out around all the rockers. Don't rev it, you will make a mess!

 

 

[ThreePointFive]

I thought I was being clever/cautious by doing it on the starter only but I will give it a go....! It does look like it's getting good flow and there is oil pooled on top of the tappets, I just don't know if it's the same oil or being replenished in quantity.

[Chazza]

If you can see a flow at the rockers, all should be well.

The lifters get their oil supply from the gallery, via the groove on the outside of the lifter,

Cheers Charlie